HistWar Napoleon : 05f (RC3)

[Eybasc]

Bonjour à la communauté ...

je me suis plaint quelquefois sur ce forum du manque d'informations dont nous disposions quant à l'avancement du développement : à quoi cela sert-il de mettre une rubrique News en page d'accueil si celle-ci n'est pas mise à jour régulièrement (dernière MAJ juillet 2014) ? Or voila  que je constate un peu par hasard que plusieurs messages très intéressants ont été postés en juillet et août 2015 par JMM et son équipe nous apportant ces informations dont sous sommes friants sur différents sujets (au passage comment pouvons nous être informés que de nouveaux messages ont été postés sur le blog, sauf à consulter le blog régulièrement !?)

Je salue cette excellente initiative ... et j'espère que ce n'est que le début.

Bon courage et bonne reprise à tous ...

Amicalement

[JMM]

Bonjour,

Je suis réellement désolé...
Je pense avoir beaucoup avancé depuis presque un an sur la correction des petits et gros problèmes.
Depuis plus d'un mois je travaille sur le nouveau système de collision des entités afin d'éviter des problèmes.. probablement rares mais existant...

Il reste qu'actuellement, je continue à travailler mais avec une efficacité un peu moindre... je dois dire que je ressens un petit coup de blues.
Je pense que cela n'est pas vraiment anormal.. corriger des bugs est surement une des taches les plus délétères dans le développement.
Il est possible que je prenne réellement quelques jours de VRAIES vacances loin du clavier, assurant seulement la veille.
Je pense que cela est plus que nécessaire actuellement.. je le ressens profondément.

Ceci dit, ne soyez pas inquiet.. ce sera un petit arrêt pour un redémarrage efficace. Je suis plutôt très optimiste pour le futur car les développements sont très intéressants:
- IA Grande Tactique pour la rendre très réactive; j'ai déjà un peu planché sur le domaine,
- Gestion du nouveau moteur graphique pour les figurines : tout est à faire et c'est mieux ainsi.
- IA intermédiaire : les mécanismes sont déjà définis : reste à coder en s'appuyant sur l'existant,
- Passage en mesh de 100² quelque soit les dimensions des cartes : cela va dans la simplification du système actuel.
- Editeur de Campagne : tout est à faire.. et tant mieux.

Voila pour le point actuel... j'ai commencé le projet il y a plus de 20 ans et ne vais pas arrêter maintenant... il y a beaucoup de raisons à cela :-)
Toutefois, je suis désolé de ne pas pouvoir avancer comme je le souhaite.. mais mes neurones ont un besoin d'air...

Belle journée

JMM

[thilio]

Merci pour les infos JMM,

Bonnes vacances et bon repos!

[sandman]

Hello JMM,

its very important and constructive to recover from such a thing being deeply focused on for such a long time.

So take your time and stay consequently AFK until you feel hungry and inspired again.

Me for my part I expected, and I wrote it before, a stage near finalization of HW:N not before late 2016 or somewhen in 2017. So I aint disappointed.

All the best and a nice holiday

[JMM]

Thank you for your suuport...
Really lucky to get this kind of understanding...
Have a nice day.
JMM

[Gunner24]

Hello JMM, thanks for the update, I keep watching from the sidelines with much interest......and really do hope to return to action one day. Best of luck from now to then.

[Théodoricus]

Bonnes vacances, JMM.
Un petit arrêt pour aérer les neurones et pour un redémarrage efficace.

Théo

[risorgimento59]

Bonjour,

Je suis réellement désolé...
Je pense avoir beaucoup avancé depuis presque un an sur la correction des petits et gros problèmes.
Depuis plus d'un mois je travaille sur le nouveau système de collision des entités afin d'éviter des problèmes.. probablement rares mais existant...

Il reste qu'actuellement, je continue à travailler mais avec une efficacité un peu moindre... je dois dire que je ressens un petit coup de blues.
Je pense que cela n'est pas vraiment anormal.. corriger des bugs est surement une des taches les plus délétères dans le développement.
Il est possible que je prenne réellement quelques jours de VRAIES vacances loin du clavier, assurant seulement la veille.
Je pense que cela est plus que nécessaire actuellement.. je le ressens profondément.

Ceci dit, ne soyez pas inquiet.. ce sera un petit arrêt pour un redémarrage efficace. Je suis plutôt très optimiste pour le futur car les développements sont très intéressants:
- IA Grande Tactique pour la rendre très réactive; j'ai déjà un peu planché sur le domaine,
- Gestion du nouveau moteur graphique pour les figurines : tout est à faire et c'est mieux ainsi.
- IA intermédiaire : les mécanismes sont déjà définis : reste à coder en s'appuyant sur l'existant,
- Passage en mesh de 100² quelque soit les dimensions des cartes : cela va dans la simplification du système actuel.
- Editeur de Campagne : tout est à faire.. et tant mieux.

Voila pour le point actuel... j'ai commencé le projet il y a plus de 20 ans et ne vais pas arrêter maintenant... il y a beaucoup de raisons à cela :-)
Toutefois, je suis désolé de ne pas pouvoir avancer comme je le souhaite.. mais mes neurones ont un besoin d'air...

Belle journée

JMM

Dear JMM,

Take your well deserved break and enjoy your weeks of rest.
I'll take mine in less than one month (destination Marsa Alam). 

Persuiting your goals/dreams for almost 20 years is a clear sign of character determination.
I wouldn't be able to keep up with that, honestly.
However, being a very uncommon approach in the industry, it raises some questions...
Premise: I don't want to hurt anybody.
I can only wish all the best to a potential tireless colleague and to his aficionados.
I'll speak frankly, while keeping myself very very far from destructively criticizing or disapproving your work.

Couple of natural questions then...

What does the HW project have become?
I can answer only from the customer angle: buying it (and it's not exactly gifted) has become increasingly a true act of faith.
Many (like me, hopeful) did in the past for Les Grognards, some (like me again, disillusioned) did for Napoleon, but the trend can't be positive at the given conditions.
So I don't see acceptable perspectives of gains/success (vs time/resources invested) for you and your partners either.
That sounds no good.

What about goals?
Following the evolution of the game, one could argue that you started, a long time ago, aiming for the ultimate simulation for hardcore Napoleonic enthusiasts, not caring too much about wonderful 3D and effects.
Worthy and interesting.
Then the baby had to face itself against the market graphical standards, so we saw outstanding terrains, lighting system, buildings and, I hope soon, units.
Unavoidable change of plans and thankfully you found the help of Romain.
Results so far: lot of bug fixing, many delays in features implementation, things like 3D - Sim inconsistencies (totally breaking my rare game experiences) considered kinda of minor issue, no optimization stage on view, and, last but not least, we've got our leader approaching dangerously the "burn out" stage.
That sounds even worse.

Final consideration...
Is realistically possible to merge the best of the two worlds then, say into an operational campaign with integrated battle mechanics (most ambitious case), for such a small team (I assume 1 lead programmer + 1 marginal programming support + artists)?
I think so, but it's an huge minefield.
It requires a lot of study and careful planning, closing with a 2-3 years all out development with no deviations.
Dragging it for 20 years proved to be somewhat counter-productive.
In game programming you might learn one thing that is obsolete after few month, figure it out...
And, personal experience, while coding it's so hard to have the mental elasticity to study/experiment/imagine in depth.
Also, most importantly, it shall be a constant, genuinely obsessive, tradeoff among aesthetics, gameplay realism, efficiency and resources.
Examples:
Seamless worlds is not a problem anymore once we've got advanced LOD techniques + multithreading (background preparation of tiles).
Procedural techniques are also worth being investigated.
AI LOD, taking into consideration the impact of any abstraction for the gameplay, is an essential tool.
Updating the AI of thousands of officers and units can be realistically achieved by explotation of the overall lack of dynamism (compared with 60hz of course) intrinsic in Napoleonic Warfare and multithreading.
Like spreading the learning's explorations of an army general's decision across minutes...
Coordinated movement can be done quickly with stuff like flow fields pathfinding and buildings made interactable via NavMeshes?
Melees space-temporal coherency keept abstracted on grids with "waves" flooding at variable rates, so you can simulate in detail only what you're showing (central theme arising very often).
If that melee exits from the camera's frustum and then regain focus, you'll be able to recreate a reasonable situation that was updated meanwhile very efficiently.
Etc.

I'd also be happy to share a little part of route with you, JMM.
If my help'd be welcome.
But there're way too many knots need to be resolved as a precondition.
So, if I'm allowed, just one suggestion...
Take some restoring breathe and reflect on the overall picture before charging like a bull VC++ once again.
Your gigantic efforts and obstinacy deserve better outcomes.

Respectfully yours,
Nicolò

[GénéraL GuiLLauMe]

Petit coucou pour apporter mon soutien indéfectible à JMM et à sa noble cause . En te souhaitant un bon repos, il faut recharger les batteries pour l'hiver .

Mais c'est vrai qu'une petite news sur le site me paraitrait nécessaire pour l'image du jeu...  Et les nombreux fidèles qui comme moi suivent de loin la progression du développement.

[JMM]

Hi risorgimento59,

I'll be back to answer to your questions ASAP

Il est vrai que je ne prends pas le temps de mettre à jour le site et les pages.. pourtant beaucoup d'éléments ont eu lieu depuis un an...
Je vais essayer de profiter de cette pause sur le développement pour mettre à jour...

Maybe some informations on the blog (in French only 
Peut être à voir sur le blog :
http://www.jm-mathe.fr/

JMM

[Belliard]

Bon repos Boss. 

[risorgimento59]

Glad to hear you're back in business and with fresh motivations, JMM.

Hi risorgimento59,

I'll be back to answer to your questions ASAP

Sorry for stressing once again... but there's no way to get a reply to my old message, yet?
Seriously, I'd like to know, if possible of course, your overall plan and the path HWN is gonna take from now on.
It's not easy to understand that from your activity and design choices. Not for me at least.
Thank you in advance and keep up the good work.
Nicolò

[JMM]

Hi Nicolo,

What does the HW project have become?
I can answer only from the customer angle: buying it (and it's not exactly gifted) has become increasingly a true act of faith.
Many (like me, hopeful) did in the past for Les Grognards, some (like me again, disillusioned) did for Napoleon, but the trend can't be positive at the given conditions.
So I don't see acceptable perspectives of gains/success (vs time/resources invested) for you and your partners either.
That sounds no good.

Maybe we must not look at this project like a "normal" one... I know I will not get a lot of money with this game. No really a problem... Just I want to finish it.
After 2 months, I resume my activity with a good interest... fixing the last issues in the engine, improving the AIs, implementing the new 3D models... No really a huge task if we compare to the set.

For the other questions...
I don't want to give you a lot of details... but the new 3D engine in progress will be the best for this kind of game.
For several months, Romain, Laurent, Eli and me (just 2 months without activity for me; Romain's activities are more underground) work on the game but we don't wish to show anything.
For example, Laurent builds the data base for the regiments (graphical parts.. it is a huge DB...)
Eli : after finishing the new UI (almost all functions are operational; for all, we have to work together), he is working on the different functions for implementing the game on Steam.

I hope that this is clear :-)
That said, I don't have any doubt about the future of this game... just need a bit of time.. and for you a huge patience.

Napoleonic regards

JMM

[risorgimento59]

Hi Nicolo,

Maybe we must not look at this project like a "normal" one... I know I will not get a lot of money with this game. No really a problem... Just I want to finish it.
After 2 months, I resume my activity with a good interest... fixing the last issues in the engine, improving the AIs, implementing the new 3D models... No really a huge task if we compare to the set.

For the other questions...
I don't want to give you a lot of details... but the new 3D engine in progress will be the best for this kind of game.
For several months, Romain, Laurent, Eli and me (just 2 months without activity for me; Romain's activities are more underground) work on the game but we don't wish to show anything.
For example, Laurent builds the data base for the regiments (graphical parts.. it is a huge DB...)
Eli : after finishing the new UI (almost all functions are operational; for all, we have to work together), he is working on the different functions for implementing the game on Steam.

I hope that this is clear :-)
That said, I don't have any doubt about the future of this game... just need a bit of time.. and for you a huge patience.

Napoleonic regards

JMM

Thank you, JMM.
Now it's much more clear.
I was suspecting this project didn't born and grew up with the utmost commercial ambitions, of course.
This is fine and interesting under many aspects, in my opinion.
For example, it could unload some pressure and allow taking more risks in the design decisions.
Which, if they turn into success, may pay their dividends as well (both commercially and as personal satisfaction).

I don't understand what's the game's target technical evolution, though.
I mean, coding a real-time tactical (*) simulation of Napoleonic Warfare, on a large scale and realistically, is challenging by definition.

* I know it's another pair of shoes, but I'd argue that tactical representation of Napoleonic battles doesn't make much sense either...
It was the first age where the operational level of war came to light consistently.
Maneuver and fighting merged into a continuum.
To my knowledge, it was rather hard, especially in the late years, to subvert the verdict of the operational context.
I feel so much this lack in every game released so far.

Let's move back to the point, one could basically follow two paths (you'll understand this better than me for sure): cutdown features and simplyfing as necessary (a lot in the given case due to its intrisic complexity), or pushing limits a bit further and accept the resulting developement efforts.

The advisable approach for a small devteam, from my very personal point of view, is to keep the best energies for something that could distinguish their product.
Scourge of War is a visible example of this.
It's no mistery it's unbelievably badly engineered and full of coding errors, but is also fairly unique in its genre ("command experience") and, I'd bet, it's gonna be more appreciated than Histwar for the coming months, if not years.
And we've got Napoleon Total War on the opposite extreme in the past.

Histwar is ambitious and mostly "carino" everywhere.
It has wonderful terrains, but as I said, I will always feel "in an iron cage" without a larger-scale scope or meaning.
It'll have wonderful 3D models now, but if you aren't going to spend much time in coding an advanced LOD system (geometrical + flat per-joint polypostor + ... + flat per-character impostor + any exploitable optimization from multithreaded matrix palette updating, shared animation clips... to HW Instancing, etc.), it will show its drawbacks and will call for more and more efforts in turn, because I guess people will notice remarkably the lack of detailed situations like coordinated melees, etc.
UI seems coming together nicely. Nothing to say.
Gameplay is intricate on the other hand and never gave me entirely the SOWWL feelings, discouraging even to learn or watching it carefully then.
Chain of command, lack of dynamism, etc. are key concepts.
However the gaming experience must be taken into consideration.
They have to marry somehow. No dual representations, please...
Sounds, physics (roundshots?), garrisonable buildings, networking, modability, etc. don't shine either.

Really, if decisions would be up to me, I'd stick to "stardards" in all fields (which is not simple on its own) but the operational-tactical continuum.
It would require heavy multithreading, resources streaming, procedural generation of map elements perhaps, IA and graphical LODs.
I think it'd doable, at least for something like 1815...
An huge challenge, true...
At least you could have the chance to be remembered for something "new", if not making some profits out of it.

In the case you're going to focus on something "unordinary", I'd be also interested in helping.
I think I'm fairly decent in pushing things to limits (and also to break them or everthing! ) and I caught some peculiarities of Napoleonic Warfare in an efficiency perspective that might come in handy.
And I need to add something tangible to exhibit in my CV as game programmer.
Let me know.

Cheers.
Nicolò

[MarshalJean]

Want to put in my two cents, real quick. 

Honestly, although it has been hard going for SOOOO long, often without any word whatsoever on how much work is being done, or not done, I have to say that I would not be in favor AT ALL of changing the basic approach HistWar has taken.  Although I know that comparisons to NTW and Scourge of War are going to happen (and it is fair to make comparisons), I think HistWar actually has been doing something fairly unique from those games, all along.  I would disagree with anyone who would suggest that HistWar should move toward either game in terms of its direction.  In fact, I would say that trying to become more like Scourge of War or NTW actually WOULD destroy the appeal of HistWar.  What HistWar brings to the table that neither of those other games can bring, is the ability to build an historical map, an historical OoB (or fictional one), and tweak doctrines, then play the battle all in the same afternoon.  While Scourge of War is technically "moddable," it takes an absolute eternity to to build an OoB not already based on those that ship with the game.  If you want to re-create and fight Austerlitz?  Forget about doing it, unless you and a bunch of highly skilled texture modders have dozens of hours to create meticulous OoBs, maps, and new unit sprites.  NTW's inability to actually model Napoleonic warfare in any kind of historical way is a given, among fans of HistWar, so I won't even go down that road.  So, what you have with HistWar, even with its incredibly slow evolution, is still a game that holds an exclusive niche in Napoleonic gaming, simply because of the ease of the editors.  If players need an operational side to the game (while we wait for it to be included, probably only years from now, to be honest), there are plenty of operational games out there that can model larger movements that can then be resolved tactically by HistWar.  Honestly, I use a lot of Napoleonic board games for this purpose, then translate the battles to HistWar, then translate the results back to the board game (or other PC game) knowing that I am using results that don't look like the end of a modern warfare game where one side is completely slaughtered, but results that look like a realistic Napoleonic confrontation.  So for a grand tactical simulation, HistWar continues to hold a place of its own...even with its all its flaws.