The other Games :-)

[Anonymous]

Well, if people want great graphics to with truly historic Napoleonic gaming what's wrong with that? I can't understand the wargamer's fetish for self-torture by looking at crude graphics.

-Best Regards
Cuirassier

[JMM]

What is all this nonsense with 3D graphics and nice images? The more important thing is a real system that plays properly. Make sure the units do what we told them to do, and go where we told them to go, take cover if we told them so, and don't run into silly situations. - allowing for all the order delays and chaos of the battlefield.

There are 2 mains things  to dive you in the middle of the battle...
a) 3D to understand all facts.. for example, the small draft show a regiment with 4 batailions which is changing his orientation.. this simple movement spends some time.. (very easy with 2D symbol.. just you turn the small box  
and to see a nice spectacle.. (I believe HW will be a good movie.. but you will be the director)

2 formation: column of peleton or division...

C: chief of bataillon
F: Flag
V: Voltigeur
G: Grenadier
S: Sapeur
T: Drummer

Regiment 4 Bataillons and 9 Coys

b) Real time to put pression on the gamer.. I don't like the clickfest.. and Les Grognards isn't like the present RTS.. For example, if your tactical is very good, you can let the AI manages the battle... If your tactical isn't the best of the world   , you have to send some orders to your Corps or units.. The time is important, but it's not a clickfest..

I like the WEGO system of turns, but I'm ready to try real time as long as it doesn't degenerate into a competition of who click faster.

HW uses 3 AI.. no to say..  :guitare:  :elephant:  :guitare: WH uses 3 AI.. :guitare: but it's a system allowing to manage the army without a lot of clicks.. (again, I don't like this..  :wink: )

The third AI (regimental AI) chooses the best formation.. (and sometimes you defined this behaviour with the doctrine).. easy example : square when the Infantry watches an Cavalry unit..
If you wish to shell a opponent, you have to point out the unit, and your artillery move to the good place, and point at the ennemy.. (because the AI knows the good distance to start the fighting...

The second AI manages the Corps..
a) you have to send some orders to your Cheif of Corps.. (deployment, defense...) After taking the parameters of your orders (formation line/column/mixte/checkerboard/echelon, hour to launch... level of reserve ), the AI places all his regiments on the line.. and manage the advance.. You have to watch the process..
The AI manages all micro-managments (rally.. )

JMM I think your game has great potential, just keep it real, and keep it simple.

Yep.. I hope too... I am sure Les Grognards is very simple.. and the wargamers only can use 5 orders.. (and no clickfest.. because I don't like ClickFest   )

[Bil]

Interesting post JMM... not sure I understand everything that's going on though with your graphics  :wink:

I have some concerns about only having access to 5 orders though... I agree about keeping it easy, however please do not dumb it down so much that it becomes a simple game.

On orders... is there going to be a delay from the time the order is issued to when it is received and then acted upon by the subordinate unit?  Or will the orders be acted on immediately?  I would of course prefer the former.

The third AI (regimental AI) chooses the best formation.. (and sometimes you defined this behaviour with the doctrine)..

Are you saying that you can adjust your army's standard operating procedure (SOP)?

If you wish to shell a opponent, you have to point out the unit, and your artillery move to the good place, and point at the ennemy.. (because the AI knows the good distance to start the fighting...

I like this, but again, will there be an order delay before the artillery unit jumps off?  Or will it be immediate?

Overall sounds impressive... still, I do have concerns over the limited control over your forces.  I agree with taking the micro-management out of the game, but I like to have more options.  A simple attack order IMO isn't good enough, you should have probe, perform turning movement, attempt envelopment, etc. options as well, and that's just for the offene.  Especially at the command level you are implementing in this game.

I'm waiting with great anticipation this game JMM.

Bil

[JMM]

Interesting post JMM... not sure I understand everything that's going on though with your graphics  :wink:

  I want to show a lot of things.. and I don't spend the time to do that..     SORRY SORRY...

The grey pictures shows two formations with 9 compagnies...
The first one is the Column of Peleton.. each line is a compagny.
On the first line, there are the Flag and the Chief of Battailon...
The second line is the Voltgeur Compagny...
On the third, you can see the 3 drummers...
On the last line, there are the grenadiers..

The second grey picture shows a Column of Division...

The colored picture shows a new orientation of the battailon...
4 phases to do that! The objective is to display the 3D process to modify the orientation.. In 2D, it's very easy.. and the software can forget this movement! in 3D NO! ( :cobra:

SORRY for these 2 crazzy graphics.. I don't do that again  :wink:

I have some concerns about only having access to 5 orders though... I agree about keeping it easy, however please do not dumb it down so much that it becomes a simple game.

This game isn't simple.. I hope the Command Control Interface will be easy.. but the game is difficult.. When you have to define your Tactical Plan on the beginning of the battle, it's not easy to do the good choice.. (the oppoments aren't displayed for the hard option)

On orders... is there going to be a delay from the time the order is issued to when it is received and then acted upon by the subordinate unit?  Or will the orders be acted on immediately?  I would of course prefer the former.

There are 2 kinds of order...
a) order to Corps.. the user is the Commander in Chief! the order is sent to the Marshall.. (delay to receive the message). After the order is understood, the marschall send messages to all colonels..
(the mechanism is more complexe.. because there is the Division and Brigade structure) So, the delay increases with the corps strength, and the Marschall value...

The third AI (regimental AI) chooses the best formation.. (and sometimes you defined this behaviour with the doctrine)..

Are you saying that you can adjust your army's standard operating procedure (SOP)?

Yep.. At the beginning of the battle, each user have to define his doctrine.. For each type (Inf, Cav), you define the behaviour of your unit when there is an event.. for example, when the Infantry of the Guard meets a INF in line, the guard does.. (halt or avance and line or column)... Wait for monday to read the FAQ.. there will be a short Faq about this question

If you wish to shell a opponent, you have to point out the unit, and your artillery move to the good place, and point at the ennemy.. (because the AI knows the good distance to start the fighting...

I like this, but again, will there be an order delay before the artillery unit jumps off?  Or will it be immediate?

b) (the second case...) When the gamer sends an order to an unit, he becomes a Chief of Corps.. and his units are near.. so no delay (max 1 minute)  But the order isn't always done (moral, engaged unit...)

I hope it's clear...

JMM

[Link]

On orders... is there going to be a delay from the time the order is issued to when it is received and then acted upon by the subordinate unit?  Or will the orders be acted on immediately?  I would of course prefer the former.

There is an option before you start the battle that allow you to choose if you want orders to be performed immediately or with a delay.

Overall sounds impressive... still, I do have concerns over the limited control over your forces.  I agree with taking the micro-management out of the game, but I like to have more options.  A simple attack order IMO isn't good enough, you should have probe, perform turning movement, attempt envelopment, etc. options as well, and that's just for the offene.  Especially at the command level you are implementing in this game.

That's where you come in as the Commander in Chief.  :wink:
You send the orders to your Corps. For instance you give your I Corps the "March" order towards enemy on a frontal attack and you give II Corps the "Diversion" order to attack them on their flank. As it is a "Diversion" order the Corps will try to mislead the adversary on its true intentions.

Here are the five orders:

Deployment : define in some clicks, the sectors to occupy, the hour of realization, the desired formation (in line, checkerboard, echelon), the organization (line, column, mixed), the reserve.

Defense : indicate the zones to held, using as well as possible on the geography of the site.

Diversion : try to mislead the adversary on its intentions.
 
March : send troops in a minimum of time on a zone to occupy.

Link : associate Corps to get an army.

Yep.. At the beginning of the battle, each user have to define his doctrine.. For each type (Inf, Cav), you define the behaviour of your unit when there is an event.. for example, when the Infantry of the Guard meets a INF in line, the guard does.. (halt or avance and line or column)... Wait for monday to read the FAQ.. there will be a short Faq about this question

I believe this is already up at the FAQ section. Frédéric have been really busy lately  
This adjustable tactical doctrine is a really nice feature. Even though you can take command of a single unit if you want to you don't really have to because of this feature.    

/Lars L.

[Anonymous]

JMM and Lars, thanks for the replies.

Lars, you mention orders to Corps.. can you go lower in echelon?  For instance, say I want to command at the Division or Regiment level?  Would that be possible, and if so, would I still only have the same 5 commands?

Also, I don't see any command for attack, or seize ground.. does the AI attack as it deems necessary, for instance with a deployment order?

I'm sorry, I'm sure it all works just fine, but I am having a hard time picturing how it will work without being too vague for the AI.  IOW, you seem to be relying a lot on the AI to decide on its own course of action.  Not that I doubt your AI is superb, its just that I'm sure more control for guidance wouldn't hurt and would be more realistic, not to mention it would improve the AI as it could be more focused.

Is there  a list somewhere of the actual commands/order types that were available at this level of command, at this time, to the on field CO in reality?  For example (and this is for Modern US Army), here is a partial list of actual order types (for offense only) used to command a force:

·Offense:
o   Attack
o   Attack by Fire
o   Movement to Contact
o   Ambush
o   Feint
o   Raid
o   Exploitation
o   Pursuit
o   Breach
o   Follow & Support (follow lead element & become Base of Fire (BOF) upon contact)
o   Follow & Assume (follow lead element & become Maneuver Element (ME) upon contact)
o   Reinforce
o   Destroy
o   Disrupt
o   Block
o   Secure

I guess my concern is that you are giving too much control to the AI and expecting it to do the fine thinking while trying to guess your intent.  In reality orders are very specific (I doubt it was much different then) just so there is no miscommunication or misunderstanding.

Regards,
Bil[/quote]

[Bil]

Is there a way to edit these posts?

Bil

[JMM]

Is there a way to edit these posts?

Bil

Hello Bil

You may edit your posts.. but you must login

JMM
PS : I believe there is a problem with the english langague of this forum.. Some sentences aren't translated
Wait for our next version of this WebSite

To login : Se Connecter

Nom d'Utilisateur = User Name
Mot de passe = Password
Se connecter automatiquement = save your password for quick login

[JMM]

Lars, you mention orders to Corps.. can you go lower in echelon?  For instance, say I want to command at the Division or Regiment level?  Would that be possible, and if so, would I still only have the same 5 commands?

You can send orders to 2 levels of the hierarchy...
5 to the Corps,
4 to the Regiment,

Divisons and Brigades allow to decrease the delay... Idea is...
Marschall gets an order.. ie : deployment on this sector...
For example, the (AI) Marshall chooses:
a) DIV1 on the left
b) DIV2 on the right
c) Div3 in support.. and 3 orders are sent to Général de Division

Each (AI) Général de Division chooses:
a) Brigade A on the Left
b) Brigade B on the Right

.. and so on!

So, all these tasks are done at the same time...
If there aren't Div and Brigade, the Marschall have to write all orders.. for example with 15 regiments -> 15 minutes...
With the intermediate hierarchy, delay is around 8 minutes...

Also, I don't see any command for attack, or seize ground.. does the AI attack as it deems necessary, for instance with a deployment order?

Yep, there isn't order to attack a corps... The Corps AI isn't very smart. This AI helps you to realize your tactical plan.. You drew a  deployement line.. and the AI tries to place his regiments on this line.. This AI avoid you to manage the micro-management...

The main concept of Les Grognards is : You are Napoleon, Koutouzov or.... Chief of Army.. For example, you have defined 3 sectors...

a) main attack on the left
b) diversion on the center
c) diversion on the right + defensive line to keep your communication line.. (Very Important in HistWar)

Don't forget the reserve.. on the center, behind the front...

The battle begins... Very important to keep watch all movements on.. for example. AI on the left is halting the corps.. you don't want this! you only switch the AI off for this corps... Now, you have to manage the movement.. (but the basical tasks like Rally are always active)

I am sure your choices will be better than AI ones.. but it's not easy to manage all.. To summarize : I am sure you are better than the AI to manage some units.. but I hope this fact isn't true for 15 or 20 regiments...

Design notes : priority
Corps : execute your order, and save the corps!
Unit : save the unit and execute your order!

what does 'Save the Unit' mean! when the losses are important, the unit gets out!

So, when you define a deployement order, the Corps tries to go to the line.. and the Corps attacks all opponents on the way...

In the diversion order, the Corps tries to go to the line, but retreat if there is an important army on the way :wink:

I'm sorry, I'm sure it all works just fine, but I am having a hard time picturing how it will work without being too vague for the AI.  IOW, you seem to be relying a lot on the AI to decide on its own course of action.  Not that I doubt your AI is superb, its just that I'm sure more control for guidance wouldn't hurt and would be more realistic, not to mention it would improve the AI as it could be more focused.

The Great Tactical AI is the most smart (I hope).. It creates the tactical plan, and tries to take your Communication line..

I believe this 5 orders allow to build all tactical plans.. hum! I am sure! (in LGAA, there wasn't MARCH..    this new order without concentration allows to increase the set of Tactical Plan...)

JMM
PS1 : I hope all is clear!
PS2 : Thx Lars for your support...
[

[Link]

Lars, you mention orders to Corps.. can you go lower in echelon?  For instance, say I want to command at the Division or Regiment level?  Would that be possible, and if so, would I still only have the same 5 commands?

You can become a Corps commander and give orders to each unit within that Corps (a unit is either a regiment or a brigade). Or you can become a colonel and order just a specific unit.

Here is the four orders you can give to a unit:

March to...
Charge a unit
Support a unit
Reconnaissance

And off course order the unit into a specific formation:
Line, marsh column, attack column, skirmish, square, mixed order. (I think I covered most of them)

See the order dialog for the units below:



Napoleons hat by the way is for giving the command back to the AI.

/Lars L:

[Bil H]

JMM and Lars,

Thanks you for your exhaustive replies.  They really help me in learning what this game is about.  From what you say I am very intrigued.

So when is that demo coming out?  

Bil

[JMM]

JMM and Lars,

....
So when is that demo coming out?  

Bil

ASAP..

I made mistake about the date of the demo.. I thank for Christmas ...2003  :P

So, I am working hard with my small team.. but 1 day = 24 hours  :wink:

and I don't want to talk about a date    ASAP...

JMM

PS : Demo = Tutorial in solo mode...

[conscript]

jmm, thanks for your replies, I'm not sure i understand everything but i'll reread it again, no time now :-), but i apreciate the effort you make to answer our questions
best

[Link]

Hi Conscript,

Is it something in particular you don't understand from JMM's post?

I'll try to interpret it for you.  

A tip.  

If your press the first green box on the top right on his post called "citer" you will get his message as a quote. Then you can remove the part you do understand and leave the part you don't understand starting with {quote="JMM"}" and ending with {/quote}.

Just Use [ ] instead of { }. I couldn't use the [ ] in this post since it would return a quote.  :wink:

/Lars L.

[Anonymous]

thanks link, i was in a hurry the other day and didn't have time to read the post, but i was intrigued.
I think i understand most of it.
I'll think of another annoying question and I'll post it here :-)
keep the good work