Borodino 2012 re-enactment

[DominiqueT]

I just got back from Russia, as I was on a 2-3 weeks battlefield tour on the 1812 battlefields.

There are some 140 pictures of the Borodino re-enactment online now, more to follow.

http://napoleon-monuments.eu/Napoleon1er/Borodino20120901.htm

Currently only Saturday's pictures.

[DominiqueT]

Everything is online now, nearly 250 pictures

http://napoleon-monuments.eu/Napoleon1er/Reconstitutions.htm

The movies will follow later....

[Jacquinot]

Thank you for this pictures!
Do you like in Russia?

[DominiqueT]

I liked very much the fact that Russia restored all monuments of the war of  1812 (40 on the Borodino battlefield alone), even those destroyed under Stalin (e.g. in Krasnoie and Maloyaroslavets.

In that, Russia is an example for all countries in Europe !

They care about their history !

[Jacquinot]

I liked very much the fact that Russia restored all monuments of the war of  1812 (40 on the Borodino battlefield alone), even those destroyed under Stalin (e.g. in Krasnoie and Maloyaroslavets.

In that, Russia is an example for all countries in Europe !

They care about their history !

Tnank you for this words.
What you think about people in Russia?

[during]

bonjour Dominique.

merci pour ces excellentes photos comme d'habitude 
je mets un lien en complément.

http://www.theatrum-belli.com/archive/2012/10/04/1812-2012-grande-reconstitution-de-la-bataille-de-borodino.html

salutations Grognards

[DominiqueT]

What you think about people in Russia?

Difficult to say, when you don't speak the language and only stay there 2 weeks.

I suppose you have nice people and less nice people, like everywhere.

We met some very nice people, but we were "emprisoned" for an hour by a guard in the Smolensk cathedral because an old man of our group had a camera in his hand - although he wasn't even taking pictures. Then we were released because there was a wedding in the cathedral !
We also heard from local guides- in every town - that the French had burned the town and that the Russians had won the battle of Borodino.

[Jacquinot]

Difficult to say, when you don't speak the language and only stay there 2 weeks.

I suppose you have nice people and less nice people, like everywhere.

We met some very nice people, but we were "emprisoned" for an hour by a guard in the Smolensk cathedral because an old man of our group had a camera in his hand - although he wasn't even taking pictures. Then we were released because there was a wedding in the cathedral !
We also heard from local guides- in every town - that the French had burned the town and that the Russians had won the battle of Borodino.

Do you think we don't won the battle? Many Russians believe that we won Borodino, and some Russians think that it was a draw.)))
Who burned Smolensk? I think French artillery, im not right?

P.S. Sorry for guardsman in Smolensk.

[DominiqueT]

If the Russians had won the battle of Borodino, why did they retreat and leave Moscow to the enemy ?  It makes no sense, if they had won. Then the French would have had to retreat. I never heard of a battle in history where the winner retreats and the loser takes the winner's capital.

Moreover, their losses were neartly twice those of the French and Allies.

If many Russians believe they won, it's because from the day after the battle, that has been told in Russia (cf. Kutusov's report), and it went on for generations.
It's doesn't make that a historical fact.

The fire at Smolensk started when and exactly where the Russians were leaving the town. As they did in many other cities. They did use the scorched earth tactic.
It would have been completely illogic for the French to systematically burn every city they had just conquered and that they wanted to use for shelter.

[Jacquinot]

If the Russians had won the battle of Borodino, why did they retreat and leave Moscow to the enemy ?  It makes no sense, if they had won. Then the French would have had to retreat. I never heard of a battle in history where the winner retreats and the loser takes the winner's capital.

Moreover, their losses were neartly twice those of the French and Allies.

If many Russians believe they won, it's because from the day after the battle, that has been told in Russia (cf. Kutusov's report), and it went on for generations.
It's doesn't make that a historical fact.

The fire at Smolensk started when and exactly where the Russians were leaving the town. As they did in many other cities. They did use the scorched earth tactic.
It would have been completely illogic for the French to systematically burn every city they had just conquered and that they wanted to use for shelter.

Dear Dominique, Russia is a very large country, Moscow, St.Petersburg or Stalingrad it is just points on map, nothing more!!! We can leave any town or city if it be necessary, understand? In Borodino battle our target was to destroy French best soldiers, best French troops, and we did that, Moscow nothing more than f...cking target on map, personaly i hate this city!
We destroy best French soldiers and won compaign of 1812, and we won Borodino battle!!! WE WON THE WAR 1812!!!

P.S. About French losses at Borodino, in reality we don't have any trustworthy sources about French losses at Borodino, all archives was lose. Many Russian historians think that your losses at Borodino was about 40000 - 45000 mans. If you loose just 20000 mans why you don't destroy Russian army?

[baurya]

By the same way, is every body is Ok to say that the friedlans battle is a french victory ?

I don't know because when I have visited the army museum od St Petersburg this summer, about Friedland , the guide said us :

"The battle of Friedland was a victorious retrait". 

Apparently, the history has a other signification ...

It obvious that russians army plans to retreat and to let the french think they've win so as to Napoleon , being confident, invades Russia 5 later

[Jacquinot]

I think so, if you put purpose before the battle and get it, then you've won, if not then you are lost.

[DominiqueT]

We destroy best French soldiers and won compaign of 1812, and we won Borodino battle!!! WE WON THE WAR 1812!!!

Of course Russia won the war of  1812, but not the battle of Borodino.
I don't want to start a controversy, but I never heard a British historian say Arnhem was a victory in 1944 because the Allies won the war, or a French one say May-June 1940 was a victory against Germany because, in the end, France was on the winning side.

[Jacquinot]

I realy can't understand why you Frenchmans think that you won Borodino battle, because you take some unfinished redoubts and Russian army don't attack you on next day and leave battlefield? Maybe we can classify this like a draw, but not more.

P.S. If you think that Russia lost battle because Kutuzov don't attack on next day, i think it was impossible to attack on small front full of corpses.

[baurya]

I just want to say that, visiting russian military museum (Moscow, Krasnoie, borodino, st petersbourg, ...), it appears that russians guide do not accept any defeat :
Austerlitz ? they win a napoleonian flag : a victory (it 's the only painting in the borodino museum on Austerlitz)
Freideland ? it is a "victorious defeat" (dixit the russian guide)

I'm sure that russain has won russo-japanese war in 1905 since they have occupied Port arthur 40 years later.

To complete DominqueT, of course, the battle of France is a Frenhc/British victory : Since panzer runs to the channel, Hitler demand to Guderian to stop the run because the german flanks were not protected and can be attacked by the french army. It allows British expedionnary forces (BEF) to return home. In this BEF was a still unknown general : Montgomery.
According Jacquinot view, since British win the war in north Africa and then on werstern front, Battel of france is a victory.

To summarize the russian point of view, whatever the tactical fights (victory or defeat), since the russian win 1812 campaigne, they win all the battles
By the same way, since France win the 100 years war, they win all the battle, so forget Azincourt and Crecy
Since BEF can escape, Battle of France is a french victory