Auteur Sujet: Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2  (Lu 44459 fois)

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Re : Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #15 le: 28 août 2012, 21:32:41 pm »
Bonjour,

Je reviens sur le sujet de la "barre de moral" comme sur un Total War. Au delà du plagia, cette barre a d'autres défauts.

Sur un jeu réaliste comme HistWar, avec la présence du temps pour envoyer ou recevoir des ordres; on peut recevoir une information directement avec la visualisation de la barre. Ce qui ne correspond pas avec le jeu.
Avec une simple visualisation, on peut savoir à tel endroit notre armée est en train de craquer. C'est simplifié le jeu et avoir une vision extérieur du chef d'armée.

J'ai une suggestion pour avoir une vision du moral des troupes. La présence d'un rapport d'engagement. S'il est 14h30 et on demande le rapport d'une division, on aura le dernier rapport datant de 14h par exemple.
Ce rapport précisera les ordres qu'ils ont reçus, les actions qu'ils font et vont faire. Un résumé de l'engagement avec le ratio allié-ennemi, les pertes.
Ainsi que des phrases types:
- Subissent faiblement-moyennement-lourdement l’artillerie ennemi
- Se font flanquer le coté gauche-droite ou flanque l'ennemi
- Surnombre d'ennemis ou surnombre d'allié
- Présence de cavalerie ennemi sur le flanc
- Subissent peu-moyennement-trop de pertes sur le combat de ligne
- Fatigue des troupes alliés
etc etc

Avec ce rapport d'engagement, on connait l'état de la division. C'est à nous de savoir si la division peut encore tenir, s'il faut la faire retirer du combat, envoyer des renforts.
Je pense que c'est plus intense d'avoir un rapport d'engagement et savoir jauger le moral des troupes, que d'avoir une visualisation directe par une barre qui ne signifie pas grand chose.

Cordialement,
De Gros

Ton idée n'est pas contradictoire avec l’implantation d'un indicateur visuel, elle irait plutôt dans le sens d'un complément d'information que voudrait chercher le joueur. Je verrais bien l'ajout d'une petite icône en forme de livre  que l'on trouverait en cliquant sur un général de corps/division/brigade qui fera apparaître à l'écran son dernier rapport sur l'état de ses hommes. 
Après rajouter des indicateurs et des automatismes ne va pas dénaturer le jeu mais le rendre plus clair et accessible car il ne faut pas oublier  que tout le monde doit pouvoir écrire sa propre "histwar" . Si on veut se la jouer en hardcore wargamer en commandant ses hommes uniquement à travers la lunette du général en chef, sans aucun indicateurs et avec l'échelle de temps réel on pourra le faire. Inversement les novices pourront s'initier au concept Histwar avec des indicateurs, pas de délai de temps dans les ordres sur des batailles qui ne vont pas dépasser 1 heure. Quand à la grosse majorité des joueurs, ils vont se retrouver entre ces deux visions de jeux et piocheront entre le côté réaliste et le côté arcade.
De plus il ne faut surtout pas oublier le côté multijoueur ou l'on doit mettre un peu le côté hardcore pour se concentrer sur l’efficacité et la rapidité car contrairement à Napoléon qui était entouré d'un Etat-Major pléthorique, on est seul pour prendre des décisions dans un délai plus court.

Bref si on veut ouvrir le jeu à un public plus large et il faut accepter de faire des concessions sans dénaturer le concept d'Histwar, c'est-à-dire un jeu hautement personnalisable qui ne doit pas viser uniquement la micro-niche des wargamers old school.
« Modifié: 28 août 2012, 22:07:26 pm par Darsh »

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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #16 le: 28 août 2012, 22:22:20 pm »
Comme beaucoup je pense qu'une meilleure utilisation de la vue 3D symbolique (comportant plus d'informations) sera le le moyen de séduire ceux qu sont rebuté par la nécessité d'aller chercher les infos dans les différents onglets de la 2D.

Je pense aussi que-sans dénaturer l'esprit du Jeu- on peut donner plus d'information au joueur en cours de bataille (même si ces informations sont déductible de l'examen de l'état des corps). Il arrive que dans le feu de l'action on a pas le temps de cliquer sur toutes les icones. En particulier :
- un "accusé de réception" quand l'ordre est bien arrivé (le pb étant que l'estafette aura pu aussi se faire capturer au voyage retour...)
- des messages motivant le refus de réaliser l'ordre (coprs menaçé, trop affaiblis etc)
- des messages d'urgences, par ex pour exprimer le besoin de renforts ou l'imminence d'une rupture
-des messages pour signaler la mort ou la blessure d'un chef de corps (en général on s'en aperçoit à la lecture du compte rendu final et je n'ai toujours pas trouvé comment on identifie les tués)

Il faudrait aussi mieux expliquer comment moduler l'attitude d'un corps et présenter au joueur un système plus "littéraire" qui accompagnerai ses ordres.
Par ex:
Déploiement rouge au delà de la ligne ennemie + initiative à 2 + IA de corps désactivée = se traduirait par "ordre au maréchal machin de charger l'ennemi sans retenue "et on indiquera le type formation choisie, l'heure etc etc)
Il faudrait d'ailleurs en profiter pour associer ça à un environnement sonore différent d'un déploiement simple: on bat la charge, les unités crient des "vive l'empereur" ou des "Hourrahs", on joue "la victoire est à nous"...

De même un déploiement sur ligne bleue avec une initiative de corps à 0 et l'IA de corps activée se traduirait par "ordre  au maréchal machin de tenir à tous prix".

Bref on change rien sur le fond on aide juste un peu le joueur novice qui n'a pas une culture approfondie de la mécanique des batailles de l'époque à comprendre les conséquences de ses ordres.

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Re : Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #17 le: 28 août 2012, 22:45:23 pm »
I like many people here bought histwar for a reason, I am getting a little bit concerned about the requests for the 'dumbing down' of this game. I know there can never ever be true 100% realism, but this game can be tailored to any players tastes already. Talking about realism always seems to evoke criticism, Napoleon wouldn't have had a 2d computer generated map, but he would have had maps, how else could you relay orders to a computer game, the 2d map idea and drawing deployment lines seems perfect to me? Increase and decreasing time helps how please? Once the orders are given doesn't matter how quick time is portrayed.
Whether I would play this game in real time for realism is neither here nor there, and the chances of finding someone to play against me in real time would be impossible.
I too want to see JMM make a lot of money for the hard work and dedication that has been shown since I first discovered this game many years ago on the --------- site and to see more people playing.  I choose to play histwar because I feel it is the epitome of a Napoleonic battlefield and hope others will buy this game for the same reason.
This is a corps based strategy game, that requires very few/if any individual orders to be given, this is not a micro-management game. Some people writing on this forum think that because people play total war ntw3, they will change to histwar if it was more like ntw3, most players who play total war games do so because they like that type of game, I myself enjoy it, but I also like histwar, more, please no more comparing ntw3 with histwar or vice versa.
I would rather be reading about ideas and observations that would improve upon the strategical realism of this game, rather than the looks, don't get me wrong, I am as excited about the new look as anybody, but histwar for me is not about looks/animations/sound etc, it is about Napoleonic strategies and tactics.
Suggestions:
I would like to see a larger data base for Generals/Corps Commanders/Regimental Commanders etc that could be added to by players as they discover names when building oobs, which in turn can be accessed by players for the building of historical battles.
Reassigning battalions/squadrons from one regiment to another. (In historical accounts ? battalions from ??? assisted ??? regiment).
A more versatile terrain where infantry, cavalry etc can use terrain to shelter from artillery fire (line of sight for artillery as it stands at the moment could be better?).
Entry of reinforcements onto battlefield from anywhere other than lops.
River maps are a bit problematic at times, as many battles involved rivers would be nice to see engineer units for bridging maybe?

No one is comparing NTW3 to Histwar, no one even brought NTW3 into the conversation. Do you speak french? Did you understand my post?

No one is talking about dumbing down the game. But the concept of giving an order and coming back 3 hours later to see what happened is not appealing but to a few players.
This concept is just not appealing by itself, players want something to do while watching the battle.
Giving the option to the player to be more active in the battle is just that: An option. People can decide they want to  pick and chose which unit supports which one, or if they support each other at all or they can decide to keep things as they are now. JMM already had talked to me about some ideas to get the player more involved without affecting the overall spirit of the game and i think changes like that would be welcome.

Visual cues would only represent data that is already available to the player anyway, but in a hidden place. A player would appreciate getting an idea of the moral/cohesion of a unit visually without having to look for it.  There are so many units on the map, no one is going to be aware of all their status all the time but being able to get this info visually when needed is helpful.

you might not care about the 3D part of histwar but 99% of the players would love nothing more than command the game from the 3d View. The 3D view is gorgeous and offers the most immersion of all the views, however one cannot command effectively from this view.
what would the objection be to improving the interface to allow command from the 3d view? When i play MP, i have to play it from the 2D view which takes away a lot of the immersion.

Every game has settings for novices and grognards. For the novice these changes help them get used to the game and then when comfortable they can try more historical settings.
As long as no changes are made to allow more novice players, even heaven forbid TW players, to be able to get into histwar, the more you restrict the audience.
it would be a shame that such a masterpiece would remain a small niche game when it has the potential to be huge.

As a big fan of JMM and Histwar i think it is my duty to state my opinion the way it is.

VC

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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #18 le: 28 août 2012, 22:58:24 pm »
If anything will new players end up by being overwhelmed with information/things to look at?
You are the CiC in charge of the Army, there are 3 levels of AI for orders, reinforcements what formation is adopted where?
How they behave is what the Doctrine Editor is for. When you get used to playing the game you can interpret whether or not formations are growing tired etc, you will know if a corp has been in action for 4,5,6 hours the chances are its potential to hold/attack a position will be much depleted, then YOU can give orders for another corp to support, then it is up the corp AI to determine the support that is needed.
Please remember this game prides itself on its AI.
Could we risk information overload here?

No VC i do not speak French, some times the google translator makes it difficult to understand, lost in translation, I made a mistake and mentioned ntw3, should have said total war which was mentioned a couple of posts after yours by DeWalther and your mentioning of floating moral flags brought total war into my mind.
Apologies.
« Modifié: 28 août 2012, 23:15:57 pm par [NBC]Friant »

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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #19 le: 28 août 2012, 23:26:38 pm »
Hello VC, good to see you around again.
Citer
it would be a shame that such a masterpiece would remain a small niche game when it has the potential to be huge
I'm sure everyone here agrees with that, but we need to be careful, HW is a masterpiece because it is NOT a TW type game.  I would bet my house that if JMM went to work for CA for a couple of years we would have a far better TW game than we do right now, but HW is HW, not TW and I for one would not want to see it changed that much.

Changes to get more people interested and involved, yes please, but in the end, no matter what is wanted, or done, it will remain a Army / Corps / Orders / Commander game, not a never ending, mouse clicking, do everything yourself, battalion level game - I hope !!!


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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #20 le: 29 août 2012, 00:20:32 am »
Rest assured no one wants to turn Histwar into a total war look alike, including me.
Just because the total war series is arcadish does not mean they did everything wrong. Their interface is very intuitive, it does not take long to absorb it.
I am not saying either that Histwar should copy the TW interface. I am just saying that when designing a new interface for Histwar it would not hurt to use some concepts  that are now ubiquitous like the smiley icons. A moral bar and other similar features are standard in strategy games and not a property of total war games only.
These changes would make the game look more familiar to people crossing over from other games and provide a lot of help to get used to the game because currently a lot of information is available but the player does not know its there or where to look for it.
Of course this info is in the manual, but to my chagrin not many read the manual.
For those who do not want to see that moral bar or other visual aid, you would have the option to disable them.

Histwar2 will have everything needed to succeed, most people complained about the old graphics, now it will have graphics better than napoleon total war. The second most common complaint was the odd interface. Again the interface is not bad, it is just not what players are used to, adding some familiar options would not hurt anyone and would increase the audience of the game.

For me the sounds and animations are as important as anything else, i might be in the minority on that but i think it would be a great addition and would help sell the game more.

VC
« Modifié: 29 août 2012, 00:25:17 am par von_Clausewitz »
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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #21 le: 29 août 2012, 08:31:08 am »
+1 von_Clausewitz

Histwar 2 needs really to be more friendly user but it'll never be a totalwar clone but a "modern" game like Paradox's games which are complex games (on steam) with a lot of success and a big community.

Now for the suggestions:

-For the animations:
I think it would be very costly in time and money for the JMM's team to make the motion capture to reproduce the natural movements. It would possible to "copy" (legaly of course) or buy the squeletton animations of other historical games and apply it in Histwar 2?

- The importance of a very good demo:
It should include a strong tutorial which would cut in multiple phases like "How to give orders" (novice/advanced), "How to manage" your army (novice/advanced) etc.
The demo should have two famous historical battles, different battlefields with different armies like Austerlitz and Waterloo to show the potential of HW2 and attract new players.
Release the demo 1/2 months before the release of the game to create a sentiment of desire and make a cheap and good publicity. A player who is playing the same demo again and over again during 1/2 months will buy the game. 


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Re : Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #22 le: 29 août 2012, 11:35:06 am »
-For the animations:
I think it would be very costly in time and money for the JMM's team to make the motion capture to reproduce the natural movements. It would possible to "copy" (legaly of course) or buy the squeletton animations of other historical games and apply it in Histwar 2?

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.................................................................................................NON

La motion capture est un procédé qui coûte beaucoup de temps et d'argent.
Très peux de studio de jeu vidéo possède une telle technologie, et en général louent les services d'une société spécialisé en motion capture.
Sachant en plus qu'une fois les animations de capturés, des animateurs doivent en général refaire les anims afin de les cleaner et de les optimiser.
A chaque frame la motion capture pose une clef avec position et rotation sur chaqu'un des 3 axes. Pas facile à retravailler brut de décoffrage.

Pour ce qui est de je cite " buy the squeletton animations of other historical games ", je croyais qu'on avait dit qu'on arrêté de parler des Total War.  :mrgreen:
Ce qui en plus est totalement impossible à faire. Ces animations sont leur propriété, et ne seront jamais vendue, sauf au gas qui rachètera le studio un jour.

Pour recadrer un peu le débat, il serai favorable que vous discutiez gameplay, interface,...... plutôt que graphisme ou habillage, qui en général sont des domaines très techniques, ou seul les gens du métier savent vraiment de quoi ils parlent.
Ça permettra de gagner du temps, vous en évitant de faire des post inutiles, et moi en passant du temps à vous expliquer pourquoi.

Gameplay et interface Messieurs

Voilou
« Modifié: 29 août 2012, 13:15:38 pm par DeWalther »


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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #23 le: 29 août 2012, 14:54:30 pm »
Citer
Rest assured no one wants to turn Histwar into a total war look alike, including me.
Good to hear that.

Citer
Of course this info is in the manual, but to my chagrin not many read the manual.
Ahhh, the reading of the manual problem, which is a real pity as HW has about the best manual anyone will ever find, packed full of brilliant information - top marks for that.

One thing I would like to see, it has been mentioned before, is more information on WHY things have happened, for example.....why did my Hussars surrender ?..........someone tell me please, send me a message from the CC and tell me why those 600 Cavalry men surrounded.

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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #24 le: 29 août 2012, 15:03:04 pm »
C'est pas si inutile que ça car je vais me coucher un peu moins bête ce soir!  ;)
D'autant que ça ne répond pas vraiment à la question de fond: comment allez-vous faire pour rendre les mouvements un peu plus réaliste?
Avoir de bon graphisme c'est une chose mais si on se retrouve avec les mêmes animations que HW1 surtout pour les combats de cavalerie, ça ne va pas le faire!

 



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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #25 le: 29 août 2012, 15:44:01 pm »
Si Darsh, parce qu'il n'y a pas de question en faite.
Suis pas graphiste 2D, mais infographiste 3D, donc c'est dans le package.
Ne t'inquiète pas pour ça  ;)


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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #26 le: 29 août 2012, 15:58:24 pm »
Mon dernier point sur les animations:

Je ne suis pas entrain de parler d'animations tres poussees ou de trucs style mettre des electrodes sur des bonhommes pour capturer le movement.
Les jeux avaient des animations bien avant cette technologie.
Il y avait des animations manquantes dans le jeu auparavant, des trucs qui etaient abstraits. Par exemple: si je chargeait une batterie d'un certain angle avec de la cavalerie la batterie disparaissait sans animations de combat...

Je parle de trucs pareils, augmenter un peu le nombre d'animations...

VC
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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #27 le: 29 août 2012, 16:31:53 pm »
I am assuming you are playing your battle in real time, playing in fast forward is always going to throw up some oddities? The animations in histwar should only be there to give some clue as to what is happening, as long as that artillery battery is destroyed by your cavalry are the animations that important?
It is more about the scale, especially when it comes to 1/1 scale, zooming into a particular part of the battlefield so close as to see individual animations surely should be second place to the grandeur and scale and overall tactical gameplay?
Smoke, explosions etc work well when playing in fast forward, I see in some pictures from the forth coming game that a lot more smoke columns are visible, this will be a good addition. You have added 'swirling mist' which also adds to the visual aspect of the game. What about additional sound effects etc, what is planned for those?
We have had many conversations during our battles about how the occupation of territory works, one army can occupy 3/4 of the map but this has no effect on the outcome of a battle, is this something that could be used to determine victory conditions?
From what is said there are going to be improvements across the board, a few pictures would be nice, or another short video to give some idea of what can be expected.
Sometimes when drawing deployment lines strange things can occur due to the fact that one corps is occupying some of the same area as another corps and the deployment goes wrong, some visual representation of a corps zone of control would be helpful?
When same army corps become intermingled, this was a very disadvantageous thing to happen in real life, is this represented in game?

I bought the manual AFTER i bought the game and it was money well spent, it has given me hours of reading pleasure and is so nice to have as a reference while learning the game and reading it should be encouraged.
« Modifié: 29 août 2012, 16:34:37 pm par [NBC]Friant »

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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #28 le: 29 août 2012, 17:04:39 pm »
Yes, it is important to see even a crude animation of combat showing that thr battery was charged and destroyed. It is a buzz kill when playing in 3D to see that happen. It kills the immersion.
Following your logic what is the point of having any animation or the 3D layer at all? Let's just play in 2D.

I think the most comparable game to histwar would be scourge of war: gettysburg.
Somehow this game is selling very well, more than histwar despite using sprites instead of 3D models and despite not offering 1/10th of the options histwar offers.
Why is that? One has to ask himself that question.
Here is my opinion after buying the game and checking it ou:

1/ sounds and animations are of better quality. They help you get immersed more. The animations are very crude, nothing special but they do the job.

2/ although the interface of SOW is also diferent than other strategy games and has a learning curve you can command the army from the 3D map.
It is much easier to command an army in histwar than in SOW in my opinion.

3/ Finally when the AI is annoying you with it's incompetence, you can take manual command like histwar but somehow the units in SOW feel more responsive.

Histwar is a better game/ engine compared to SOW, but the other is outselling it without a map editor, an oob editor or a unit editor.
One has to wonder why.

VC
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Re : Suggestions pour Histwar 2/ Suggestions for Histwar 2
« Réponse #29 le: 29 août 2012, 18:16:54 pm »
Whenever i watch cavalry attack artillery and i have seen it many times, i love how a couple of squadrons peel of to do the deed. I agree the animation is basic but this is imo secondary to the overall playability of the game.
I know the game you are talking of, again it is not good making comparisons, SOW is real time/individual order/strategy game.
Histwar is a Napoleon Tactical/strategic/corps based/authentic battle building game/offering the tools to anyone who wants to build any battle of the Napoleonic era (greatly overlooked in my view). You can play as Nap himself, delivering your orders via messenger etc, etc... This game is not about controlling individual units, the ai is supposed to do that acting on your Doctrine.
I cannot see how you can incorporate any of what happens with SOW into this, the whole game revolves around the cohesion of the corps, once you disable the ai for a single unit it can and sometimes does affect the whole balance of what the ai is trying to do with the corps.
Graphics were very, very important to me at one time, hence the monster pc to play tw, histwar has me captivated for reasons better than graphics.
We do not know what we are commenting on, JMM teases us with his words on what histwar2 will be like and a few pictures that look jaw dropping, when the 1/1 scale was mentioned way back when, it was going to be the turning point for this game but for reasons i cannot understand it still is not selling as it should, over looked by 1000's of 'Napoleonic' enthusiasts.
I THINK we want the same things, i would love to see awesome graphics but not at the expense of what this game is supposed to be about.
Anyway i think with a few more pictures and videos of what is to come, and us promoting histwar in our communities the attraction of this game will grow. ;)