Belgium Campaign 1815

[defcon]

Wich is your last version? Wich differences have with original mod's battle? Thanks

[Jacquinot]

Wich is your last version? Wich differences have with original mod's battle? Thanks

Version with my last deployment, look at picture post #163. And read all topic, im and Alfiere create new satellite map for Waterloo.

[Alfiere]

Why do not proceed until end?
After that is more interesting to have sav file for to watch replay.

I changed and continued my battle in solo mode single side ,without GB (screenshot # topic 152) and i had a good recovery.(only for curiosity)
At 17.20 reduce difference to 5% losses , english front create a channel and i attack this channel with guard very soon.
But i must tell that Bulow has not own plan and remain stationary.
I stop to play at 17.20

In your battle there is no channel and is more historical (a front and also a support for the 1 front).
Then is more interesting.
Hello

[Jacquinot]

Why do not proceed until end?
After that is more interesting to have sav file for to watch replay.

I changed and continued my battle in solo mode single side ,without GB (screenshot # topic 152) and i had a good recovery.(only for curiosity)
At 17.20 reduce difference to 5% losses , english front create a channel and i attack this channel with guard very soon.
But i must tell that Bulow has not own plan and remain stationary.
I stop to play at 17.20

In your battle there is no channel and is more historical (a front and also a support for the 1 front).
Then is more interesting.
Hello

Im not play to the end because i want know some information about Quiot, Donzelot, Marcognet formation to attack, why they use division columns to attack, all i know from historic sources that they use "old style formation, Napoleon saw this but do nothing". Anybody have information about this?

[Frédéric]

Im not play to the end because i want know some information about Quiot, Donzelot, Marcognet formation to attack, why they use division columns to attack, all i know from historic sources that they use "old style formation, Napoleon saw this but do nothing". Anybody have information about this?

Hello,

I have never seen any historical sources explaining why they used such a formation. Some historians tried to explain the reason but it is still an open issue.
It has been said many times that the formation wasn't good at all as it was preventing square formation and thus resistance against cavalry.
It is probably not true as Donzelot division succeed in forming a square and succesfully repulsed the english heavy brigade.
According to english accounts the failure of d'Erlon attack was much due to disorder in columns after having crossed the hedges of the the Chemin d'Ohain and the heavy fire poured by allied artillery and infantry during the march in the plain.

I hope it helps

Regards

Frédéric

 

[Jacquinot]

My version that they use this formation because must go through battary wich was very close to enemy line, they go on small corridors about 100 - 120m and some divisions go round of the battary to the right between battary and Durutte division, they have small front to marching and have no time after they go through battary to change formation.

[bibouba]

This is the testimony of corporal Canler who was in the Quiot division of the Ist corps :   
"Le soleil étant monté à l'horizon, on prit les armes et l'on se mit en bataille. L'empereur passa alors devant le front de tous les corps, et, par un mouvement spontané qui ressemblait à une commotion électrique, casques, shakos, bonnets à poil furent agités au bout des sabres ou des baïonnettes aux cris frénétiques de Vive l'Empereur ! !!
Vers midi, nous allâmes prendre position sur le plateau de la Sainte-Alliance, où avait été établie une batterie de quatre-vingts canons, puis on nous fit descendre dans le ravin qui porte le même nom, et où nous étions à l'abri d'une batterie formidable que les Anglais avaient établie pendant la nuit en face de la nôtre, et qui faisait un feu continuel.
Bientôt ce fut un duo effroyable exécuté par les deux batteries composées de près de deux cents canons ; les boulets, les bombes, les obus, passaient en sifflant au-dessus de nos têtes. Après une demi-heure d'attente, le maréchal Ney donna l'ordre d'attaquer et d'emporter d'assaut la batterie anglaise ; trois coups de baguette sur la caisse d'un tambour suffirent pour que le corps fût prêt à marcher : on nous forma en colonne serrée par bataillon"

It doesn't mean that they were deployed before the artillery. If the artillery is in the little mount wich start à the 21st km, it could mean that the infantry was behind protected by the mountside.

[Frédéric]

It doesn't mean that they were deployed before the artillery. If the artillery is in the little mount wich start à the 21st km, it could mean that the infantry was behind protected by the mountside.

Hello Bibouba,

That could indeed be an explanation. But Canler says that they first went on the ridge where the grand battery was installed.
According to you this would mean that they went on the mount of 21st km in rear of the grand battery and then went back down in the ravine. Why not?
But in that case, we come back to the problem of ammunition caissons which were placed behind the grand battery and would have disorganised the the Ist corps. Nothing is solved

And it still doesn't explain :
1/how the big columns went through the grand battery and caissons on the march to the allied line. A batalion deployed in line is very difficult to manoeuver and is almost only able to go forward.  
2/what was the second position where reserve batteries went before the charge of the heavy brigade as stated by Gourgaud and Dessales
3/how the grand battery was brought on the ridge at the 21st km
4/why, in that case, was the effect of the grand battery so weak on allied troops. Mister Damiens says "Les témoignages cités par Siborne, celui du baron van Zuylen van Nijevelt[36], tous ceux des témoins de ce côté du champ de bataille sont d’accord : on eut à subir de cruelles pertes, avant même d’avoir pu tirer un coup de mousquet"
On the other hand the map from Adkins you gave shows that the effect of the grand battery was poor.
I read Waterloo letters of Siborne from the Kempt en Pack brigades. They don't talk about cruel casulaties before firing a shot. They don't heaven mention the fire of the grand battery. It seems they were not so impressed.
It's possible that van Zuylen van Nijveldt tlaks about it but he was placed with the Bijlandt brigade on top of the ridge. In sight and in the range of 12 lbs french guns wherever they were placed.

As far as I currently know the easiest way

Regards    

[Jacquinot]

And it still doesn't explain :
1/how the big columns went through the grand battery and caissons on the march to the allied line. A batalion deployed in line is very difficult to manoeuver and is almost only able to go forward.  
4/why, in that case, was the effect of the grand battery so weak on allied troops. Mister Damiens says "Les témoignages cités par Siborne, celui du baron van Zuylen van Nijevelt[36], tous ceux des témoins de ce côté du champ de bataille sont d’accord : on eut à subir de cruelles pertes, avant même d’avoir pu tirer un coup de mousquet"
On the other hand the map from Adkins you gave shows that the effect of the grand battery was poor.
I read Waterloo letters of Siborne from the Kempt en Pack brigades. They don't talk about cruel casulaties before firing a shot. They don't heaven mention the fire of the grand battery. It seems they were not so impressed.
It's possible that van Zuylen van Nijveldt tlaks about it but he was placed with the Bijlandt brigade on top of the ridge. In sight and in the range of 12 lbs french guns wherever they were placed.
 

1. I think in Grand battary was small corridors(1 or 2 corridors) about 100-120m in lengh and infantry go forward in this corridors battalion after battalion in line, thats point to use "old style formation"
2. About poor casulaties of Bijlandt brigade, i think 50 cannons have not much firepower to give big injure to small brigade deployed in line.

[Jacquinot]

Ok guys, in conclusion i say that im play 3 variants of Waterloo battle(picture 1,2,3), in first variant i have disorganization in d Erlons corps when he went through the battary, in second variant grand battary cant open fire because range was too long and no aiming shot, and third variant most adapted to game and maybe to reality. Thanks so much to Alfiere for his work at elevations and Bibuoba for his hard work at MOD and to all for try to finde truth. Im upload 3rd variant in depot like Alifere-Jacquinot addon to Bibuoba MOD. All units detachet to exclude unauthorized orders and movment, but if you dont like micromanagment you can attach all units or units which you want.
And of course we can continue discussion about Grand battary,the truth is somewhere close
 

[bibouba]

The second one is not possible. I ve been more than 30 time in Waterloo battlefield and there is no ravine on that part. They are totaly expose to the Allies artillery.

[Frédéric]

The second one is not possible. I ve been more than 30 time in Waterloo battlefield and there is no ravine on that part. They are totaly expose to the Allies artillery.

Hello Bibouba,

Then maybe you should come to the battlefield once again, and if you like I will accompany you to show the "ravine". I don't live far away from the battle field
If there are two different ridges (the one of Belle Allaince and the one of La Haye Sainte), there is inevitably a dale between them.

Regards

Frédéric

[Jacquinot]

The second one is not possible. I ve been more than 30 time in Waterloo battlefield and there is no ravine on that part. They are totaly expose to the Allies artillery.

Yes there is no ravine just little lowplace.

[Frédéric]

Yes there is no ravine just little lowplace.

Hello,

On the following map I highlighted the part of the "ravine" with an elevation lower than 4 metres from the ridge of la Haye Sainte. In this area even a tall man with shako on his head is always 2 meters below the top of the ridge that hides him from allied fire.
This area is about 1000 metres long and 300 metres wide in the widest part and still 100 metres in the most narrow part.

The diagram below shows how could have been formed the french divisions of the Ist corps for the first attack.
There were about 125 m wide for 75-80 m deep.
There were 4 columns (Bourgeois brigade, Donzelot division, Marcognet division and Durutte division)

On the whole area they have enough place in depth to form columns and they just use about 500 m wide. They still have enough place to leave space between each column of about 100 m and remaining hidden from allied fire.

Of course the word "ravine" is exagerated to talk about this small dale but it was the word used by Corporal Canler and it is technically usable to hide columns from battery fire.

It is of course not a proof that this was the position of the Ist corps at the beginning of the attack but it shows that it was possible

I hope it can help

Regards

Frédéric   



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[Alfiere]

I have doubled the slope with map elevations for to make it clear , but also so is not much evident the 'ravine' but perhaps give a idea of little dale.
With srtm the risolution of reliefs is 90 meters.(there is exact elevations every 90 meters)