Belgium Campaign 1815

[Frédéric]

Dear all,

Mister Damiens has probably a very logical reasoning but he doesn't stick to historical sources.
This is not the way to study History.

According to me (and historical method) a logical reasoning should never overrule a historical source, we first have to read testimonies and other historical sources and then try to connect all these sources by a logical reasoning.

Anyway, another testimony from a french soldier who was present at the battle may explain how the Grand Battery may have fired from a position on the ridge of La Belle Alliance without disorganising Ist corps formation.

This is the testimony of corporal Canler who was in the Quiot division of the Ist corps :   
"Le soleil étant monté à l'horizon, on prit les armes et l'on se mit en bataille. L'empereur passa alors devant le front de tous les corps, et, par un mouvement spontané qui ressemblait à une commotion électrique, casques, shakos, bonnets à poil furent agités au bout des sabres ou des baïonnettes aux cris frénétiques de Vive l'Empereur ! !!
Vers midi, nous allâmes prendre position sur le plateau de la Sainte-Alliance, où avait été établie une batterie de quatre-vingts canons, puis on nous fit descendre dans le ravin qui porte le même nom, et où nous étions à l'abri d'une batterie formidable que les Anglais avaient établie pendant la nuit en face de la nôtre, et qui faisait un feu continuel.
Bientôt ce fut un duo effroyable exécuté par les deux batteries composées de près de deux cents canons ; les boulets, les bombes, les obus, passaient en sifflant au-dessus de nos têtes. Après une demi-heure d'attente, le maréchal Ney donna l'ordre d'attaquer et d'emporter d'assaut la batterie anglaise ; trois coups de baguette sur la caisse d'un tambour suffirent pour que le corps fût prêt à marcher : on nous forma en colonne serrée par bataillon"

Corporal Canler explains that the Ist corps was deployed in a ravine IN FRONT of the grand battery and that shots were flying above their head.

If the grand battery had been placed on the second ridge (the one of La Haye Sainte) the Ist corps would have been totally desorganised when going through it on its march to the allied line. It would have had to stop to reform, and this very close to the ennemy line and under fire of allied artillery.
This was tactically very dangerous.
On the other hand it was also dangerous to have such a big amount of artillery deployed so close to the ennemy line without any support.
Thirdly : what could be the second position where reserve batteries advanced (according to Dessales and Gourgaud) if the grand battery was already in place on this ridge? There are only two ridges on this part of the battle field.

The position proposed by Adkin and Damien, though logical as far as firing range is concerned, presents also some weak points.

Regards

Frédéric

[Jacquinot]

Speed simulation without micromanagement with great battery how your deploy at 500-600 mt.
AI take control in pratice of all corps,after give order to diversion at Reille to Hougument,English Guard at once in defence.
After 1/2 - 1 hour ->all great battery destroy.
At 12.30  french losses 10 %  english 2%
at 13.00  AI put d'Erlon in defence and situation more stable   french losses 10%  english 4%

Yes, AI take control (the two sides are very closed).
But for me great battery is too much near to enemy and is in very danger.

For me is too much complex detach all units to play battle,perhaps is better that you alone play battle in both side with restricted orders.
You are more accustomed to play with detach units.(you have already made a simulation with Borodino).
Please , at the end tell us how end your the battle.
Hello

Im not play Waterloo to the end with detached units, just to 14.00, i have no problem to take Hougoumont but have big problem to coordinate d Erlons attack because infantry allways try go round battary or just stand and wait, my best result at 14.00 on picture, and more, in my battary was only 50 cannons, when i add 30 12pnd cannons of guard in battary, english line find oneself  in real trouble.

[Alfiere]

My pic at 13.00 with all great battery destroy.
I do not give support to great battery,i am waiting at 13.00 for shoots with it,but at 13.00 no more G.B.
AI had already take control of GB and alredy unlimbered and shoots.
 

[Jacquinot]

My pic at 13.00 with all great battery destroy.
I do not give support to great battery,i am waiting at 13.00 for shoots with it,but at 13.00 no more G.B.
AI had already take control of GB and alredy unlimbered and shoots.
 

Your battary was destroyed by enemy fire or cavalry counterattacks?

[Alfiere]

By infantry !!

[Jacquinot]

Corporal Canler explains that the Ist corps was deployed in a ravine IN FRONT of the grand battery and that shots were flying above their head.

If the grand battery had been placed on the second ridge (the one of La Haye Sainte) the Ist corps would have been totd when going through it on its march to the allied line. It would have had to stop to reform, and this very close to the ennemy line and under fire of allied artillery.
This was tactically very dangerous.
On the other hand it was also dangerous to have such a big amount of artillery deployed so close to the ennemy line without any support.
Thirdly : what could be the second position where reserve batteries advanced (according to Dessales and Gourgaud) if the grand battery was already in place on this ridge? There are only two ridges on this part of the battle field.

The position proposed by Adkin and Damien, though logical as far as firing range is concerned, presents also some weak points.

Regards

Frédéric

I play 5 times variant where battary place on second ridge at 600m at enemy line, and i allways have desorganisation in d Erlons attack, and allways my battary was attacked by english cavalry with high casaltues for me, after that im go to idea that better place battary on 1st ridge at 900-1000m from enemy line and d Erlons infantry place between 2 ridges in ravine, and after infantry attack send forward some reserve battarys on second ridge to support. Im glad that my idea was in veteran  memoris, maybe its true, it looks very lgical.

[Jacquinot]

Alfiere i think we must try variant like in Corporal Canler memoris i think its very good version.

[Alfiere]

I agree.
G.B. at 1 ridge is more safe , and only in second time some battery support INF attack.
If you want play ok, for my side i play only with little micromanagement , if is necessary.
Hello

[Jacquinot]

Corporal Canler memoris variant:

[Alfiere]

A question, how many guns in the deploy ?
80 or 50 ?

[Jacquinot]

A question, how many guns in the deploy ?
80 or 50 ?

50 cannons - 6 12pnd Reile corps, 6 12pnd Muton corps, 6 12pnd d Erlons, 24 8pnd d Erlons and 10 hw.

[Jacquinot]

OMG artillery cant fire at this position - too long range!
Where was this battary?

[Alfiere]

Too far to make true damage,this speak history.
But we can use how barrier and sometime some battery to move in advance for support attack.
For me is not wrong at the end.

[Jacquinot]

Im remember about strange formation (battalion after battalion) with small front which used to attack by Quiot, Donzelot, Marcognet and this direct me on some thinks:

[Jacquinot]

I play my last version and have not bad resoult:
1) Im take Hougoumont with hard fight and high casualties in Jerome division after 1h of battle, English guard try to counter attack but french stand, resoult not histirical but i play only to 13.00 Englishmans have enough time to retake casttle.
2) With my last deployment d Erlons infantry easy go to attack between battarys, french infantry go to ridge but English cavalry conterattack force infantry runaway or stand in square - resoult close to histori.(im start d Erlons attack at 12.30)
3)Im always have problem with unauthorized movment of french cavalry and i must always send orders to recall.(its historical if remember Neys cavalry charge )
4)All units detached for minimize unauthorized movment and orders.

P.S. If you interested i can upload save file in depot.