Choosing the Deploy concentration point + Deploying detached regiments

[Marquês de Alorna]

Sometimes I feel frustrated by not being able to do a few things that appear quite logical to me:

- Deploy order: one should be able to select the point of concentration on the map.
This allows you to occupy some key terrain quickly and then form to one of the standard corps formations before proceeding with an attack - even if there are some risks of being defeated piecemeal during concentration.
Sometimes I would also like to make the point of concentration coincide with the point of deployment when still far from the enemy. Yes, I can give the March order initially, but the purpose is different. The March order does not allow you to select a formation other than march column, and it does not result in an ordered formation on the target spot. On the other hand, giving the Defend order initially moves units to defensive spots which often results in odd formations. Besides, I want to give a single order, not to give 2, so it would be much simpler to select the concentration point as part of the Deploy order, and I think it would be straightforward to implement in the current engine.

- One should be able to order some individual regiment to Deploy to a given spot (i.e. while maintaining combat formation formation). The March order forces a march column formation. While for cavalry this can be circumvented with a Scout order, which is artificial.
Although giving orders to individual regiments is micromanagement, sometimes there is no possibility to occupy some important/key point (e.g. a bridge) rather than sending an order to a regiment that is spotted nearby. This would be realistic in my opinion.

[Hook]

The March order does not allow you to select a formation other than march column

What other formation would you use?  March column is the quickest.  If the units are threatened, they'll change formation as necessary.

One should be able to order some individual regiment to Deploy to a given spot (i.e. while maintaining combat formation formation). The March order forces a march column formation. While for cavalry this can be circumvented with a Scout order, which is artificial.

It's not so artificial given what you want to use it for, and you can give scout orders to infantry as well.  But given that the nature of the scout order has changed recently, you'll be better off just ordering a unit to move where you want.  Again, both orders will move the units in march column which has the fastest move rate, which is probably what you want in this case.  They'll deploy into a different formation if enemy is encountered on route, or if threatened at the final destination.

Hook

[oho]

Can you explain, what changed with the scout order?

[Marquês de Alorna]

What other formation would you use?  March column is the quickest.  If the units are threatened, they'll change formation as necessary.

My experience is to they will rout once they spot the enemy advancing towards them ready to give combat. Otherwise, why would a corps not march to the final deployment in march column formation? That's precisely because a change of formation when the enemy is nearby is dangerous and may lead to panic.

[Hook]

Can you explain, what changed with the scout order?

It's still in beta, but expect scouting units to be a little more intelligent about what they do.  They should be rejoining their parent corps after the scouting mission is done.  This code is not yet complete, so I can't say exactly how it will work in the final version.  As far as I can tell, a move order and a scout order do the same thing in the current version of the game.  This change will make the scout order recall the scouting units when their mission is complete.

Because of the rejoining behavior, if you want the cavalry to stay where you asked them to go, you'll have to give them a move order to detach them from the corps.

A note:  as with all beta code, there is no guarantee that this will be in the very next version of the game, or will be working exactly as expected.  However, the changes are planned, and we'll see them eventually.

Hook

[Marquês de Alorna]

My experience is to they will rout once they spot the enemy advancing towards them ready to give combat. Otherwise, why would a corps not march to the final deployment in march column formation? That's precisely because a change of formation when the enemy is nearby is dangerous and may lead to panic.

Hook, can you confirm that this is the expected behavior of the March command?

[Hook]

Hook, can you confirm that this is the expected behavior of the March command?

Well, I can tell you what I've seen, and how I understand things to work.

I've seen a lot of regiments using march column.  They don't seem to have a problem on encountering enemy units.

When an infantry regiment gets within spotting distance of a threat, which is 500 meters, they will change formation.  There is usually time to change formation when one unit sees another.  Generally, if they're routing, they're probably already under fire.  It *may* be possible that they've been marching for the last game minute within spotting distance but the game engine won't pick it up until the beginning of the next minute, but I don't know the exact processing there. 

JMM has said that infantry has time to form square when they spot a cavalry unit 500 meters away charging them  so they're never really caught out of formation.  This may be different for conscript level troops and fast moving light cavalry, however;  I haven't tried to measure it.  Cavalry spotting distance is much longer, about 1500 meters, I think, so they can begin an attack before the infantry can see them. 

Is all this realistic?  Probably not, but it's reasonable behavior within the confines of the game.  It just means that infantry will ignore cavalry that's more than 500 meters away, which is probably what you want.

Nafziger in "Imperial Bayonets" says that formation changes are fairly quick, but I'd have to go research it a bit to give you examples.  There would definitely be time for infantry to form square, especially since the cavalry aren't in full gallop until they get close.

Hope this helps.

Hook

[Marquês de Alorna]

Nafziger in "Imperial Bayonets" says that formation changes are fairly quick, but I'd have to go research it a bit to give you examples.  There would definitely be time for infantry to form square, especially since the cavalry aren't in full gallop until they get close.

It was... With trained troops and outside of firing/charging range. But one only has to look at the attack column issue to understand how difficult it was to form a line when too close to the enemy, or when the enemy suddenly charged from the reverse slope.
I have a very nice Portuguese manual from 1828, written by a Peninsular War veteran, Colonel Zagalo. There he shows a lot of maneuvering from platoon level do division level, with fancy sketches. This book was surely used during the civil war of 1832-1834. But during the civil war, even the professional units would  not be able to change formation adequately when under stress. The column would change into a cloud of skirmishers instead of a line when close to the enemy (which was a motivation to hire French officers on both sides!). When cavalry was spotted, infantry would most of the time abandon formation and immediately try to use nearby obstacles to barricade themselves in spite of the fact that they should form a square according to the regulations.
Not everything that is written in the manuals was actually possible in a real situation when troops were not very well trained. And a nearby threat would make inexperienced soldiers wonder if there was in fact time to change the formation of their unit... "Is the our commander mad?"

Returning to HW-LG, I believe that the quality level of the unit should in fact have an impact. I think it already has, just as you say.

[Hook]

I'm almost certain that the charge from reverse slope is already modeled in the game, although it may be fairly rare.  I was playing from the viewpoint of a corps commander once and was very surprised to see a cavalry unit suddenly charging over the crest of a hill, right over my position.

The square formation is suitable for defense against cavalry in open ground.  If there is "anti-cavalry" terrain close by, that would probably be preferable to square.  The real strength of a square in open terrain isn't so much that there are no flanks for cavalry to ride around, but that troops can't run away without leaving the safety of the square.  In broken ground like you'd find in the peninsula, troops could seek safety from the cavalry there and aren't so likely to run away.  Of course, there's a major problem getting everyone back into formation and able to pass a roll call, but they should be nearby.

I do agree that nothing on the battlefield, especially formation changes, ever goes as smoothly as on the parade ground, but with trained troops and reasonably open ground, it's still not overly long.

I've never seen troops in the game caught out of formation, but I suspect it can happen.  I don't know how the game handles it when it does.

Hook

[Marquês de Alorna]

From this discussion I can only conclude that I am about right. You should be able to order a unit to march with a formation other than March Column, lest it be caught by surprise (e.g. sudden charge from a reverse slope) or when the troops have a conscript-level of training. This could be done by adding a dialog box with options in the same way as in the "deploy" and "defend" corps orders. In fact, in order not to micromanage the unit, you could define not the formation, but the urgency of the movement, letting the commanding officer to decide on the trade-off between speed and safety:

Urgency level: Low/Medium/High

For example the commander could decide to use Line or Attack Column for Low, Attack Column or March Column for Medium and March Column for High, depending on the number, distance and kind of units currently spotted or spotted in the last 15 minutes.

[Hook]

From this discussion I can only conclude that I am about right.

From this discussion I can only conclude that you're pushing for the ability to play Seven Years War with HistWar: Les Grognards.  Yes, you could make arguments that some nations were doing this at the beginning of the Napoleonic period, but we've already read those.  I'd prefer to see a few more bugs fixed and a lot more features added before we go in that direction. 

Hook

[defcon]

From this discussion I can only conclude that you're pushing for the ability to play Seven Years War with HistWar: Les Grognards.  Yes, you could make arguments that some nations were doing this at the beginning of the Napoleonic period, but we've already read those.  I'd prefer to see a few more bugs fixed and a lot more features added before we go in that direction. 

Hook

Excuse me, but to understand better the meaning of your speech, can you explain the difference between the two ways to fight? What you say is very interesting ....

[Count von Csollich]

Excuse me, but to understand better the meaning of your speech, can you explain the difference between the two ways to fight? What you say is very interesting ....

there is a huge difference in tactics - the AI would have to be changed significantly - in the seventh years war the "line" formation was the dominant tactical formation employed - cavalry was organized into squadrons and not regimens etc......


and to the above statements - I can only agree with Hook!

CvC

[Uxbridge]

It's still in beta, but expect scouting units to be a little more intelligent about what they do.  They should be rejoining their parent corps after the scouting mission is done.  This code is not yet complete, so I can't say exactly how it will work in the final version.  As far as I can tell, a move order and a scout order do the same thing in the current version of the game.  This change will make the scout order recall the scouting units when their mission is complete.

Hook

I am really pleased to see that this mod is coming. I always thought the way that the Scout order was implemented was wrong in that not only did the scouting unit remain where it was until manually recalled but would invariably go charging off after the nearest enemy.

On a related note, I have been reading Kagans' "End of the old order", a detailed study of the political and diplomatic background to the 1805 campaign, and there are frequent references to Corps given the job of observing other Corps.  This suggests that the scout order could be given to a Corps commander. But maybe this is to  widen the scope of LG too much...

[thilio]

On a related note, I have been reading Kagans' "End of the old order", a detailed study of the political and diplomatic background to the 1805 campaign, and there are frequent references to Corps given the job of observing other Corps.  This suggests that the scout order could be given to a Corps commander. But maybe this is to  widen the scope of LG too much...

Did you mean like Soult's corps at Pratzen the days before the battle of Austerlitz?
Maybe this kind of orders is much suited for the campaign game than for a single battle.