What changed with the last 2d-Version?

[oho]

One question to JMM:
did you work on some of the artillery-problems (sometimes not retreating when attacked, deploying too much in front) for the last version too? The changelog seems to be the same as the 2d-Version before. This is  in my view the biggest problem, because I can't securely deploy my artillery.

[JMM]

Could you take a look at the file Patch02d.txt (Folder of HistWar)
There are some several adjustments.

ART: no really a huge activity on that... BUT I am going to work on two tasks for the next patch :
a) defensive line
b) ART behaviours

That said, the procedure on the threat against ART seems right; I just increased the time for detection of the strong threat (4 minutes)
For Foot Art, it's not really easy to disengage! In this situation, AI immediately requests a support of CAV... but this needs an unit at a low range.

JMM

Comment : I worked on your file Dresden.. but after seeing the movement of Austrian Corps, I only fixed this problem... I'll rework on the ART behaviours.

[Hook]

For Foot Art, it's not really easy to disengage! In this situation, AI immediately requests a support of CAV... but this needs an unit at a low range.

This might be difficult to achieve.  It requires a cavalry unit close enough to come to the artillery's support, but not so close that the cavalry goes off chasing nearby enemy units that aren't an immediate threat to the artillery.

Several people have asked for a specific "support" function for cavalry, which would keep the cavalry in support of the artillery until the guns were threatened.  I really don't know the best way to handle this one.

I usually try to keep enough cavalry around to protect the artillery even if some of the cavalry is off chasing the enemy.

Hook

[Marquês de Alorna]

Well, I've just lost one of my ART units to Gunner24 in our current PBEM.
I've sent a corps to defend a position, but the ART units advanced  to much ahead of the corps. The regiment status "Attack unit". When I ordered the corps to defend a more recoiled position, the ART continued to advance (!!!!) with status "Attack unit". It really seems that the ART units are only very loosely coupled with the rest of the corps. I would expect the Foot Art to follow the corps immediately, albeit at a slower pace (since the Defend order does not require the concentration phase). Without cavalry support, they still tried to advance on the enemy lines. It was like an ART charge! The ART AI should also pay attention to the availability of nearby cavalry before deciding to advance too much ahead of the corps front line.

[oho]

My major problem is that infantry units often anihilate artillery units.

[JMM]

Could you try to support the ART unit with a CAV unit (order link)

JMM

[Franciscus]

IMHO there are several issues regarding ART behaviour and command:
- ART units should be more conservative in their deployment and movements. More often than not they put themselves in unnecessary danger.
- We can deploy CAV or INF close to the ART units to try to defend them, but that is too much micromanagement, and in fact CONTRARY to what IMHO is the spirit of HWLG: The Corps (?) AI should be able to defend it's ART units fairly well, without our direct intervention.
- Finally, we have a "support" order that does not do what most wargamers would expect it to - in fact it's not an inter-arms support (ie, CAV defending ART), but more an INTRA-arms help - if unit A is unable to fulfill it's mission, unit B in "support" will try to. Maybe we need a working "defend" order.

But again, the main points, avoiding micromanaging, would be for the AI to take care of one of the basic corps needs: correct ART placement and defense.

Regards

[JMM]

If I ask you to use the support order, it is for waiting a new version.

At this day, there are several mechanisms to protect the ART units..  but it is possible the problem is the LoS (line of sight)
Possible an ART unit must move forward to find its target.. and probably the present mechanism is wrong.
I don't want to ask to player he uses the micro-management.

JMM

[Gunner24]

I don't have any problem with a support order, or protecting batteries, when they are positioned correctly they can be protected, most of the arty problems seem to be when we see the dreaded :

"Attack unit"

When an artillery battery has this order it normally means bad news is on the way soon.....the battery will almost always go off to far ahead, even "bumping" into the enemy arty on the way.

I would like to see some system whereby artillery would refuse to move within a certain distance of an enemy arty battery, rather than go charging up next to them.

Artillery behaviour is by far the most serious problem remaining to be fixed, but having said that, it is the same problem for everyone in PBEM and MP, so when "we" get annoyed by how daft the arty sometimes behaves, it will also do the same thing for the other side........the game will be much improved when this can be resolved.

The most important thing is to get the artillery well deployed BEFORE they get close to the enemy.

[Hook]

From what I've seen, a proper attack against a proper defensive line gives the proper results concerning artillery.  It's when you have two corps who are both marching into contact that causes some problems.

You want your foot artillery to be fairly conservative, and your horse artillery to be fairly aggressive, but not so much so that they outrun all their defenders all the time.  What I've seen is that an artillery unit with an attack unit order will move into range, and this may be closer to the enemy than you'd prefer.  There are historical descriptions of this happening, but it was considered somewhat remarkable at the time.

Hook

[oho]

I'm contemplating about the masters:
"If I ask you to use the support order, it is for waiting a new version."
Does that mean, that support order with the current version does work like a protection order and that this workaround/micromanagment isn't necessary anymore in a new version?
That would be great news, perhaps we should try it, if the support-behaviour changed?

[AJ]

Does that mean, that support order with the current version does work like a protection order and that this workaround/micromanagment isn't necessary anymore in a new version

?


 No Oho, it is still the same and JMM means he is looking at a different order for protection in the future. However using the "Support" order now, at least puts your supporting unit close to the Arty and if you see an attack coming you can head it off quickly. It is micromanagement but right now it's the best answer.

[Gunner24]

It's when you have two corps who are both marching into contact that causes some problems.

This is very correct......partly to blame is the "blue line" jumping further ahead than you may expect.

I'm finding that it pays to move the Corps forward in smaller "steps" rather than one massive advance, it helps (of course) to have sent out the scouts first .

For me the foot artillery is fine, it is the Horse arty that "attack" which cause most of my troubles.

[Marquês de Alorna]

For me the foot artillery is fine, it is the Horse arty that "attack" which cause most of my troubles.

In fact I'm having problems with both.
Ideally, I think that the AI should move Art units towards the enemy while they have nearby cavalry or infantry. If an Art unit sees itself isolated and too close to enemy Inf or Cav, they should at least try to keep themselves not closer than firing range. What do you think?

[Gunner24]

I think that the AI should move Art units towards the enemy while they have nearby cavalry or infantry. If an Art unit sees itself isolated and too close to enemy Inf or Cav, they should at least try to keep themselves not closer than firing range. What do you think?

100% agree, maybe they should stop at something like 3/4 maximum range, rather than point blank range !!!!!.

Maybe the reason I'm not having too many problems with the foot arty is that with playing so many MP games I have seen what can happen, so have started to adjust the deploy orders to avoid this happening so often, but it can still lead to disaster, like last night, they moved too close to the deployed enemy arty and a lot of cannons were lost very quickly........but with the horse arty it is almost impossible to stop them - when that "attack unit" appears !.