Types of Artillery Round and their use

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi all,

I am sure the game is accurate but I'm also quite surprised by the number of airbursting cannon-rounds used by both sides in the game. I thought these had been a British invention - i.e. "Shrapnel" rounds - but in the game, they seem to be universal.

I think the term for an airbursting cannon round is a "shell", presumably because it is a hollow shell of metal filled with explosives. The airburst effect is achieved by a time-delay fuse which explodes the shell before it hits the ground, scattering jagged pieces of the casing over a wide area.

Would it therefore be fair to say that the only difference between a British "Shrapnel" round and a French or Austrian "Shell" is that the former includes musket balls packed inside for additional anti-personnel effect, whereas the latter does not?

Artillery in the game also seems to use a surprisingly high proportion of airbursting rounds as "counter-battery fire". Accounts I have read of the Peninsular War would suggest that this was generally frowned upon as a waste of ammunition because an enemy battery was a much more dispersed target than a formed body of enemy infantry or cavalry, and therefore much less likely to suffer significant casualties. Having said that, I find it is almost impossible to mount a successful attack against an enemy position in the game without first suppressing their guns with counter-battery fire. Is this ahistorical?

[Gunfreak]

The high airbursts are mistakes, they aren't supose to do it, but it happed all the time, becasue of wrong timeing on the fuse, each airburst you see, is a failed shot, they have absolutly no effect that high up, hell even shrapnel would have no effect at that hight, shrapnel was supose to go off maby 10-15 meters over the heads of the troops, anyhigher and it had very little effect.

Shell has no effect unless it goes of "inside" the enemy formation.

[Cpl Steiner]

The high airbursts are mistakes, they aren't supose to do it, but it happed all the time...

Really? I never knew that. I have seen lots of films like "Waterloo" and "Gettysburg" which showed explosions going off high in the air but had always assumed that's what they were supposed to do!

Thanks for correcting my mistake. It just goes to show JMM's attention to detail to include stuff which has no effect on the enemy but is historically accurate.

[dieseltaylor]

As I understand it artillerymen despite orders would commonly fire at enemy batteries. Generally a waste.

[CBR]

Would it therefore be fair to say that the only difference between a British "Shrapnel" round and a French or Austrian "Shell" is that the former includes musket balls packed inside for additional anti-personnel effect, whereas the latter does not?

Yes that would be the only difference really. The difference in actual use would be that the Spherical Case Shot (Shrapnel) achieved most of its effect if exploding in front of its target. A common shell worked better if exploding within the target.

...Having said that, I find it is almost impossible to mount a successful attack against an enemy position in the game without first suppressing their guns with counter-battery fire. Is this ahistorical?

Artillery in LG produces higher losses than they did historically (seems to be a bug) at least at long ranges. Combined with units routing after just taking 4-7% casualties, makes attacking very difficult before enemy guns have been near or completely destroyed. So there are some issues with history yes.

[Hook]

Artillery in LG produces higher losses than they did historically (seems to be a bug) at least at long ranges.

How do the artillery casualties in HWLG compare with those in the Kriegsspiel rules?  I have a copy, but don't understand them well enough to say for sure.

Hook

[Gunfreak]

Really? I never knew that. I have seen lots of films like "Waterloo" and "Gettysburg" which showed explosions going off high in the air but had always assumed that's what they were supposed to do!

Thanks for correcting my mistake. It just goes to show JMM's attention to detail to include stuff which has no effect on the enemy but is historically accurate.

Well in Both those movies, you actualy do have shrapnel, it was commen duringthe ACW, and the british had it at waterloo, that said, most of those you see on those movies would be ineffective rounds, shrapnel should go of about 15 meters above the ground and up to 50 meters infront of what you are trying to hit, the ball explodes and the small iron balls move forward showering the unit.
The exploding effect of shell was very limited, the expotion did very little damige, it might take of ONE leg, if it went of in the middle of a formation, what killed was the 3-5 BIG iron peices of the shell that went out. and even that had limited killing power.

But I asume JMM added the airburst becasue it would be a normal sight on the battle field

[quartermaster]

Hook - in response to your query - I repeat a post from a couple of days age.

One problem with many wargames is to realise that artillery does not have the ability to fire with good effect because of small scale terrain effects.  


From the v Reisswitz 1824 Kriegsspiel we get the following casualty rates from the dice tables for a TWO minute turn for an artillery battery of 6 guns and 2 howitzers at GOOD EFFECT (good visibility of target and fall of shot and firm ground)

Small Canister – close range – 20-60 casualties average 35
Large Canister – longer range 10-40 average 26
Elevation (ie normal roundshot) 6-18 average 9.5
Random (ricochet) 3-10 average 6.2

BAD EFFECT (wet ground, limited visibility, plunging shot etc.)

Small Canister 12-30 average 20
Large Canister 8-20 average 14
Elevation 4-8 average 5.5
Random 1-4 average 2.3

Howitzers are marginally less effective for canister and more effective at longer range.

Canister and elevation are three rounds per minute whereas Random (Ricochet) is two rounds per minute.

So for the battery firing under elevation for two minutes we have 16 rounds causing 6-18 casualties – average 9.5 for good effect (roughly 1.7 rounds per casualty) but average 5.5 or 3 rounds per casualty bad effect.

[Hook]

Thank you, Sir.

Hook

[CBR]

How do the artillery casualties in HWLG compare with those in the Kriegsspiel rules?  I have a copy, but don't understand them well enough to say for sure.

Hook

If we look at the 1828* rules and assume best case scenario (good effect) then the two turns (4 minutes) a 12pdr battery gets to fire at an advancing 3 rank formation (from 2000 down to 1500 paces range) it will produce an average of 28 casualties total. In LG it is more like 6 times that.

*longe range artillery effect were adjusted down to about 1/3 compared to the 1824 rules.

[quartermaster]

I think JMM mentioned a possible reason for artillery effect at long range being on the high side in another post a few days ago.  Hopefully I can find it later.

Just to clarify my earlier post - many games assume good effect always applies and it should not!!  The visibility measure JMM has put into the game should help keep artillery within some constraint. 

A skillful brigade commander should be able to use ground to shield his men from the worst effects of enemy artillery.

The Montebello map is rather open which may also mean most of the artillery can find good targets.

[LNDavout]

well according to nafzigers Imperial Bayonets:

The only statistics available on the actual casualties that were ever inflicted on an attacking unit come from German historian Müller and are given below.

Artillery vs Cavalry

1600-800 Yds 4 Kills 2 Wounded  

800-400 Yds 6 Kills 4 Wounded

400-0 Yds 9 Kills 23 Wounded

total of 19 killed and 29 Wounded

Artillery vs Infantery

1600-800 Yds 4 Kills 4 Wounded  

800-400 Yds 8 Kills 2 Wounded

400-0 Yds 30 Kills 90 Wounded

total of 42 killed and 96 Wounded

He served in the King´s German Legion and assessed the numbers of casualties inflicted by a 6-pdr during such an attack.In addition, he used a higher rate of fire in his calculation.The average was two roundshot per minute or three canister, but Müller seems to believe that the artilleriests could reach a rate of eight rouds per minute when being charged.Unfortunatley he does not indicate the type of formation beeing fired uppon...

In his book The Face of Battle J. Keegan says that a smoothbore cannon could keep its front clear of attacking troops with its fire. B.P. Hughes, in his book Firepower supports this. There is certainly no doubt that if a single gun could maintain the rate of fire indicated above, its front would be kept clear of any attacking troops.

                                                                                              Nafziger

Because of the slow movement of the troops on muddy ground canister was even more deadly.

[HarryInk]

I think JMM acknowledged a bug where canister was firing with max effect over the max distance.  Expect the artillery in the full game and demo v.2 to be quite different, I think.

As for the shells having little effect, don't underestimate the effect of flying metal fragments.  A jagged spinning piece of high speed metal the size of a large coin can do enough damage to persuade someone to leave the field.  

Some examples, Wenzel Krimer's account, a surgeon with Jagow's bridge under Keist @ Leipzig:

"Our battalion was drawn up in column between two Russian batteries which we were protecting.... a shell came over from ahead of us, exploded instantly, smashed an officer and a sergeant in the chest and head, and broke the legs of twelve men in the column.  I fell backwards to the ground, convinced that I had been hit... on close inspection it transpired that a shell fragment had whizzed between my legs and, because its velocity was already much reduced, had got caught in my cloak, pulled me to the ground and stuck in the earth behind me."

It is possible that by 'shell' Krimer means a ball but then he does say 'exploded'.  Another example comes from Molostvov, an ADC to Prince Eugen @ Wachau:

"[the french] artillery had a devastating effect, for just as the Prince of Wurttemberg was standing beside a Prussian battlion, a shell landed near him, exploded, and knocked down twenty-five men."

or again, from a french soldier Karl Rohrig:

"we stood in square under a fearful hail ...  A shell landed in the middle of the square, its fuse still burning, and dug a crater in the ground.  I tucked my head down between my shoulders and waited for whatever happened next.  puff! it exploded and did not hit a single man in our company, though the second and third companies suffered heavily.  One officer had the top of this head sliced off."

All these gruesome examples are from anthony Brett-James' "Europe against Napoleon: The Leipzig Campaign, 1813, from eyewitness accounts".

[quartermaster]

One for the future when the British arrive  - spherical case shot (named after the inventor Shrapnel) which by all accounts was superior to the common shell both in terms of casualties when it burst in the right place plus a more consistent fuse mechanism which meant it burst in the right place more often.

Will we see the rockets of Whinyates battery one day?

[Hook]

Here are the pertinent sections from the British version of the rules which were taken from the 1824 version of Kriegsspiel:

To simplify the calculation for losses the results are given in terms of points. For infantry in three ranks one point equals five men, whereas for infantry in two ranks three points equals ten men.

Adjustments to the Basic Artillery Fire Results
There are, of course, a multitude of circumstances that will affect this basic result and need to be considered by the umpire. Some general guidelines are as follows:
Artillery Fire Against Columns & Second Lines
Add 25% to the effect for any of following
a) Cannon fire against columns of two battalions or more, squadrons or batteries.

Using the Artillery Fire Table
To calculate fire from artillery battery, roll a die and cross reference the result with the type of battery firing and the range. This will indicate the losses, expressed in points, inflicted on the target unit. For larger or smaller units than those specified, adjust the casualties inflicted on a pro rata basis.  For example, for a half battery firing halve the casualties that would have been inflicted by a full battery

RATE OF FIRE ASSUMED
CANISTER 3 rounds per minute
HIGH ELEVATION 2 rounds per minute
RANDOM SHOT 3 rounds per minute

Here is the original artillery fire table and some calculated expected results.  I have converted Paces from the table to Meters of range (Paces * 0.75), given the average points for all die rolls, and given the average expected casualties for troops in three ranks and column formation.  This is for 2 minutes of fire.

12lbs BATTERY Good Effect                    Meters    Avg    Cas    Cas
DICE (Column)             1  2  3  4  5  6           Points  3-rank Column
1500-2000 Random          6  6  8  9  9 12 1125-1500   8.33    42     52
1000-1500 Elevation       8  8 10 13 13 22  750-1125  12.33    62     77
0500-1000 Large Canister 13 19 25 31 31 50  375- 750  28.17   141    176
0000-0500 Small Canister 25 25 38 50 50 75    0- 375  43.83   219    274

If someone would provide the updated 1828 artillery table and note any rule changes, I'll do the calculations for those.

If we look at the 1828* rules...
*longe range artillery effect were adjusted down to about 1/3 compared to the 1824 rules.

Just proves that nerfing artillery has a long tradition.

Hook