demo

[Hook]

I'm not really happy with the camera controls myself, but I'm still learning them.  I'm going to withhold specific complaints and suggestions until I have some better ideas on how to make it work, and I won't have those until I've got more time in the game.

I'd dearly love to have the entire battlefield rendered in 1:1 scale, but I think you're seriously overestimating what modern computers are capable of.  And keep in mind that not everyone has the best and most powerful computers.  The typical customer for a wargame tends to have a lower powered computer.

If you want to see what happens when a company makes a game that won't run on current computers, have a look at Microsoft Flight Simulator X.  Or just read any forum about the game.  When it was released, it wouldn't run with maxed out graphics options on any computer made at the time.  I've got it well balanced on my computer, usually 20 frames per second, but that can drop to around 8 fps landing at a high definition airport, just when you need the most control.

Ok... let's explore the idea of having the number of troops per figure as an option.  First, remember that everything in the game is scaled to the size of the troops.  If you change the number of troops per figure you have to rescale everything:  the trees and other foliage, the buildings, some of the terrain features like streams and bridges, even the ground textures.

Set the weather for fog and tell me what it does to your frame rate.

It's not just graphics, either.  The game would have to keep track of a heck of a lot more information as well.  That's a lot more memory usage, and a lot more calculations... exponentially more depending on how visibility and line of sight is calculated. 

If I want to see troops in a 1:1 scale, I'll play NTW.  I expect it to be very pretty, even with a limited number of troops on the field.  If I want to fight a serious battle, I'll play Histwar.

Hook

[quartermaster]

Bravo JMM - one final assault and the day is won!

Some comments - mostly reinforcing those already made so that there may be stronger evidence of something than needs investigating.

Looks promising, works well enough and has a few questions which I accept may be down to the differences between the demo and the full game.

Starting with the positives, the game loads and runs to completion without crashing (ignoring for a moment the problem with the map edge). 

The game is intended to represent a large Napoleonic battle which it can be rightly claimed to do.  There will be different expectations in the player audience particularly about the level of management and micro-management that is allowed and expected.

The visual experience is good with the figures, the terrain and the combat effects.

The player interface is effective and there is enough choice for different preferred styles.  I tend to stick with the F2 map and I am certain there are many who prefer to remain with the F3 view.

I have downloaded the demo onto my XP desktop and Vista laptop.  Both machines have onboard graphics rather than dedicated graphics cards and all seem to work OK.  Checking resource use using Task Manager I see that the game mostly shows a CPU load of 25% increasing to and stopping at 50% which probably means it is fully using one of the two CPU in the PC. This 50% may be due to having switched out of the  game.  Memory use varies but seems stable.  There is no indication of steady memory increase during the game which might indicate a memory leakage problem. 

I have needed to re-install the game on the Vista machine having experienced the “Client not Working” problem.  It had been running fine on Vista until I noticed that the tutorial did not work.  I set the compatibility to XP SP2 and the tutorial would load but not run.  On the Vista PC in XP SP2 compatibility the units for the first tutorial appear in the lower left corner rather than in the centre left.  You cannot issue orders.  When you left click in the F3 view all you get is “Unit within Corps organisation: order ignored.

I have experienced the game freeze when approaching the map edge in the 3D view.

When switching to desktop or taskmanager from the game (alt-tab combination) and returning to the game I find the game has advanced. If I pause the game first using the “W” command then the time is not advancing. On the Vista machine with a large battle the time advance is about an hour in a few seconds and runs to the end of day if I switch out of the game for 5 minutes or so.

“Teleporting”.  This seems to happen in the initial setup stage.  If you issue “deploy on line” or “Defend on Line” then the units move instantly (but strangely not their commander).  Other orders simply result in a minor change in deployment prior to marching off.

“Vanishing units”  I have seen this with all three arms but mostly artillery and cavalry.  I could imagine that artillery might abandon their guns but I would have though any cavalry unit defeated in combat would rout and escape, many seem to do this but many just vanish.

If you watch an artillery unit undergo attack in the 3D window the status becomes “Unit out of Map”.  I have seen cavalry engage in combat in 3D view.  At the end both friendly and enemy units are reduced to a few stragglers, the flags disappear and the unit status is “rallying” but the units have vanished from the F2 map.

For the artillery, they appear to deploy ahead of the main line, too far for support but this is difficult to assess because when I have issued orders for infantry to support a battery these infantry remain inactive.

“Odd route”.  The AI is seemingly allowing units to march through water when there is a dry route nearby.  Some units start in a lake and seem happy to remain there. 

“Separate attacks.”  Game formations seem to be strong divisions or weak corps of 10-12,000 men.  When the enemy line is approach single regiments seem to go off and make attacks, the same with any attached cavalry.  There seems to be no co-ordination or whole division attack.  This may be due to the doctrine settings.    I have ordered a “defend on line “ deployment and seen the  front line deploy as expected only to see a column from the second line make an attack.

Corp movement, I have also seen a corp react to new orders by regrouping to the rear and then moving forwards.

[Hook]

Good post, Quartermaster.

I've gotten vanishing units playing the Montebello scenario.  A unit will take a few casualties, usually from artillery fire, then suddenly vanish.  I need to check the upper left corner of the map in 3D view to see if they got teleported there.  I haven't seen any pattern to it other than that they took casualties immediately before disappearing.  Most of the time it is the first casualties the unit took;  I'm not sure if a unit vanishes if they've already taken casualties.

I've had the map edge lockup a couple of times.  It's always been when I was trying to move closer to Napoleon's baggage train.  I can view Napoleon nearby without problems, but I can't go over and look at the baggage wagons.

Hook

[Sean E]

I loaded up the Montebello map with the tutorial 3 forces and had a good little battle. With less forces I could see what was happening more clearly and the corps kept good line formation and moved together as a unit.

But I did notice Artillery was moving way ahead of Infantry support in exposed positions then spent a lot of time moving when enemy approached and ended up being overrun.

Also a French cavalry unit attacked an Austrian Infantry causing it to rout. All seemed ok then French Cavalry disappears. I found it a minute or 2 later a long way from that position.

Also the battle was mostly Artillery duels and Cavalry attacks. Not much Infantry fights as units usually rout or retire way before that.

[Hook]

I loaded up the Montebello map with the tutorial 3 forces

I've done this too.  JMM says not to do this in another thread.

But I did notice Artillery was moving way ahead of Infantry support in exposed positions then spent a lot of time moving when enemy approached and ended up being overrun.

The troops are halting out of enemy artillery range while they wait for their own artillery to weaken the enemy a bit before they advance to combat.  Sometimes the artillery has a hard time of it.  Not always.  It's actually proper behavior, I think.

Also a French cavalry unit attacked an Austrian Infantry causing it to rout. All seemed ok then French Cavalry disappears. I found it a minute or 2 later a long way from that position.

Do you remember what part of the battlefield you found him on?  I've got a theory that might help JMM find this bug.

Hook

[Hook]

I've found a clue to the vanishing unit problem.  It happens in the Montebello OdB as well as the tutorials, but not as frequently.

The F7 manual in the Regiments section shows the commander's name with "Destroyed" after it, as in "DeinDestroyed".  The unit info box doesn't say Destroyed.  You can find vanished units quickly at the end of a battle by scrolling through the Regiments and looking for "NameDestroyed" then follow them through the replay to see what happened.

It's not obvious why they are destroyed, other than their morale is usually zero.  Often they've taken low losses.  One unit I followed had 4.75% loss.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer to see a bunch of guys running for the map edge, with an icon in the 2D map, rather than just blinking out of existence.

JMM, I hope this is useful.

Hook

[Ras]

Has anyone noticed any influence of different terrains? How do you know what kind of terrain you stand on?
Is the ground going muddy when you play in rain?
How do you know if your corps is under artillery attack?
How do you know which unit is being attacked by artillery?
Is there a way to read the unit messages again after they swoosh by in like 2 seconds?
Has anyone also noticed that the "Rally all troops" button is quite useful?
When a corps commander puts the elite troops in the front row at the third attack, and has kept them in the second line before this, does that mean the first row is weakened? Or does he consider the quality of the enemy?
If I have 2 corps in the front line and I want 1 corps to pass through them from behind and attack, will that work?
I'm asking because I believe that a corps needs a certain space to manoeuvre on the field.
The delay, disarray and refusal described by many could be because the corps commander doesn't have space to move.

Ras

[Hook]

Hit the I key a few times to keep the messages on the screen longer.  I've noticed that they'll repeat sometimes, although a message from 4 hours ago is no longer useful.

I haven't seen any effect from the Rally Troops button.  Does it really help?

There's no problem passing one corps through another, at least that I've noticed.  Look at the 3D view to see how much empty space there is in a line of troops.

You can see what a given corps command's order delay will be at the bottom of his unit card.  This varies by distance, competence of the corps commander, and probably the need to translate orders.  You can see this number change as you move the HQ around.

I get plenty of disarray when there's no other corps around to complicate things.  Normally, when there are no enemy troops in the way, the corps keeps a good formation.

Today I gave one corps orders to advance to the other side of the map.  Another corps got orders to link on his right.  A third got orders to link in support, behind the first.  A fourth got orders to link in support of the third corps.

Things went smoothly except for the fact that the supporting corps were very close behind the corps they were supporting, until they met the enemy.  At that point all three corps intermingled.  Not quite what I had in mind.  I thought the supporting corps would wait until the first corps got bogged down, then advance.  The 3D view showed an incredible mass of troops, but everyone had room to fight.  And there was plenty of artillery, thank goodness.

On another part of the battlefield there were two corps, one in support of the other.  These guys did a great job of clearing the enemy in front of them, and didn't intermingle too much, although everyone was fighting on the front line.

Hook

[JMM]

I've found a clue to the vanishing unit problem.  It happens in the Montebello OdB as well as the tutorials, but not as frequently.

The F7 manual in the Regiments section shows the commander's name with "Destroyed" after it, as in "DeinDestroyed".  The unit info box doesn't say Destroyed.  You can find vanished units quickly at the end of a battle by scrolling through the Regiments and looking for "NameDestroyed" then follow them through the replay to see what happened.

It's not obvious why they are destroyed, other than their morale is usually zero.  Often they've taken low losses.  One unit I followed had 4.75% loss.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer to see a bunch of guys running for the map edge, with an icon in the 2D map, rather than just blinking out of existence.

JMM, I hope this is useful.

Hook

I have to analyse each post to fix the different issues  A huge task... but really important to get a good demo... but no sure there are a lot of bugs...

JMM

[Franciscus]

A small question: in the 3rd tutorial my southenr troops, if ordered due east, cross the southern lake (or is it a marsh ?) instead of surrounding it. Is this WAD ?. I thought reading the manual that the troops would avoid crossing water obstacles.

Regards

[JMM]

A small question: in the 3rd tutorial my southenr troops, if ordered due east, cross the southern lake (or is it a marsh ?) instead of surrounding it. Is this WAD ?. I thought reading the manual that the troops would avoid crossing water obstacles.

Regards

It's a marsh and the troops can move across it.
Troops can cross both lake or river if freeze.

JMM

[englishoo7]

Although I have had few problems with Demo while playing the map Montebello/Montebello I have found quite often that the enemy army is sometimes deployed all together on one flank of the Battlefield. I just restart the battle and usually they are all spaced out. It's not a problem restarting but I think I am right in saying that if I have the fog of war turned up to 'Grognard' then I would not know he had deployed all in one place and only find out after an hour or so of wasted battle.

I know the AI is turned down/off for the demo, so will this be an issue in the full version?

[Hook]

Although I have had few problems with Demo while playing the map Montebello/Montebello I have found quite often that the enemy army is sometimes deployed all together on one flank of the Battlefield. I just restart the battle and usually they are all spaced out. It's not a problem restarting but I think I am right in saying that if I have the fog of war turned up to 'Grognard' then I would not know he had deployed all in one place and only find out after an hour or so of wasted battle.

English007, are you sending out cavalry patrols to do reconnaissance at the beginning of each battle?  This would give you some idea where the enemy was.  If you're playing with fog of war turned off, then you can tell immediately if the enemy is concentrated on one flank.  If you let the battle run in that case, what does the enemy do?

It would be nice if the enemy deployment was different each battle.  If it is, I haven't noticed it.

Hook

[englishoo7]

English007, are you sending out cavalry patrols to do reconnaissance at the beginning of each battle?  This would give you some idea where the enemy was.  If you're playing with fog of war turned off, then you can tell immediately if the enemy is concentrated on one flank.  If you let the battle run in that case, what does the enemy do?

It would be nice if the enemy deployment was different each battle.  If it is, I haven't noticed it.

Hook

No, what I mean is that with the Fog of War off the enemy army sometimes just deploys every one of its units on one part of the battlefield. If I re-start the battle again then the enemy is usually spread out.

[von Döbeln]

I gave Poniatowski orders to link up on Victor's left after giving Victor a deployment order. After a while I noticed that Poniatowski's units where marching in the opposite direction. The black line when showing the orders in F8 showed them marching towards the top left corner (0,0 coordinates I presume). I reissued the order to link to Victor's left and then they started marching in the right direction. Has anyone else seen this or was it just a temporary glitch?

LvD