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Ultimate game
« le: 30 avril 2005, 11:11:18 am »
Hi all,

Here you have a chance to describe your ultimate game should be like.

I always wanted a tactical game where I can play all Napoleonic battles.
The game must be as historical and realistic as possible but still playable.

The battles must be in real-time to make it more realistic and the graphics has to be modern otherwise I could just as well play my old games. I’m a sucker for uniforms so I like to be able to see those uniforms in detail.   :P

There must be a command structure, without it it’s no war-game imho. You need to be able to easily control your army without too much micromanagement. For that it has to have a friendly AI that can handle the subunits. I hate when I have to baby sit them at all times and finding them get massacred when I got focus somewhere else on the field just because they do nothing without my direct order.  :roll:

Looks like I have described Les Grognards above and it is a game of my dreams. With some more nationalities (especially the Brits) it will be just that and I’m sure it will have it all in the end.  :D  

Then of course there is a strategic aspect that would be interesting to combine with the tactical engine. In the Napoleonic period it has to have a diplomatic feature since the alliances at that time was very weak.

I don’t like the strategic part to be too complex like seven different types of resources etc. I favour Axis and Allies type of strategic game with money as the only resource where you buy units with different abilities, strength/weakness and gain more money when you conquer another territory. But that’s me. In a game options is king :!:  So it should be possible to have it more complex if wanted.

/Lars L.
Lars L.


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« Réponse #1 le: 30 avril 2005, 20:04:44 pm »
For me, the ultimate game would have the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Era (and a llittle beyond) all in one game.  There would be a terrific strategic level with diplomacy, trade, spys, and naval matters that has a terrific Operational level of the game as well.  When a battle happens, there is a terrific tactical level like what JMM is making in 3D.  This game would offer the player a choice to play out the battles or have an auto result happen instead.

This ultimate game would come with a fantastic map and scenario editor for battles.  It also would have a Quick Battle feature much like COMBAT MISSION has where you get to purchase units for hypothetical battles.

My ultimage game would allow modding for just about everything one sees on the screen.  It would have very nice period music (that was popular at the time) -at the strategic level, with a focus on what was heard during battles --and at the Operational level  (ie. military marches.)

This ultimate game would be very flexible and allow many choices for the players to enjoy.  It would allow the player to make different choices like the development of different technologies.

Lastly, my ultimate game would make the designer (hopefully JMM) VERY wealthy.

Ok, is that enough?

Rick
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« Réponse #2 le: 01 mai 2005, 10:51:21 am »
My ultimate game would NOT have economics, trade, spies, diplomacy, or dynastic struggles, at least, these wouldn't be present at a level to where I would have to manipulate them or rely on an "advisor" to do it.

Instead my perfect game would solely revolve around combat and getting my troops stuck in.

Yes, I would need supply routes/ lines of communication, reinforcements, and post  battle recovery, but that can all be nicely handled without my mucking it up and it can be handled without some gimicky "leader" vis a vis Masters of Orion III.

Diplomatic action would be based upon my success or failures in the field.  Oops, I ignored Prussian neutrality as I marched through Ansbach and southward into Bavaria.  I don't need a diplomat to tell me that this might cause the Prussians to be upset... I'll deal with those people after this campaign.

Economics can be broken down into getting my troops what they need to fight with and that's it. I don't want to have to set up "factories" in order to produce muskets.  Just tell me how many new recruits I can arm each campaign turn and how many cavalry horses or artillery pieces I can expect to be sent to me. Let me figure out if I want to reinforce weakened regiments or if I want to create new regiments.

Spys... pfft.  Give me information via my capturing enemy troops and deserters, newspapers, local villagers.  I don't need to have to order some spy to Vienna in the hope of getting information about an army much closer to me than it is to Vienna.

Trade... All that matters is what my army needs, if we have to trade for it, fine, but leave me out of handling those matters.


I want to play the full war at real time, with the ability to increase the speed at which time progresses, of course.

I want cavalry screens that work like they should.

I want generals who aren't always at their 100% best, but aren't so stupid as to be Ney at Waterloo all the time either.

I want to be able to reorganize my entire army if I want.  If I want to change company strengths, number of companies per battalion and number of battalions per regiment on a small or large scale, I should be able to.

I want to be able to scale my battle actions according to how much time I want to spend playing the game in a single session.  So, if I want to play everything out at the battalion level or if I want to just give a general plan of battle to my corps commanders, I should be able to do so.

I don't want to deal with IGOUGO or Move Phase, Fire Phase, Rally Phase.  Instead,  these should all happen simultaneously.

I want to be able to partition Poland, or grant it independence, with the proper results to follow.

I want the AI to be forced to deal with National interests instead of arbitrarily ganging up on me or begging me for mercy.

If I do too poorly in the field, there should be an uprising against me at home and I'd expect the AI to have to worry about similar issues too.

Sadly, I saw an alpha version of a WWII game that was very nearly my perfect game, back in 1997, but that development team imploded and the game will never be published now.

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« Réponse #3 le: 01 mai 2005, 11:17:20 am »
Bonjour EveryBody...

 :D Great Thread.. Please.. Continue :arrow:

JMM

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« Réponse #4 le: 02 mai 2005, 08:54:15 am »
Also, my ultimate game would be one where I could use it to moderate a miniature campaign.

I'd want to be able to start a single player game toggled to "campaign moderator" status in order to open up the campaign manager menus.

I should be able to input orders for all sides involved, adjust unit strengths after a miniature battle is fought.

I should be able to add or remove units from the game at will, to account for random events, or to add new regiments/ disband severly weakened regiments.

Once I'm done adjusting for the campaign, the game should then be able to resolve movement and supply automatically.

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« Réponse #5 le: 02 mai 2005, 16:30:55 pm »
I agree with Lord of Khorne about miniatures.  

The ultimate game would keep track of infantry battalion, cavalry regiment, & artillery company strengths for use with miniatures.  On top of that, keeping track of horses would add an unsurpassed degree of realism.


Kevin Kiley's "Artillery of the Napoleonic Wars 1792-1815", shows how important the loss of horses are. Each gun depended upon horses to move them. Without horses, the battery is less mobile and also potentially "easier" to capture.

Senarmont's artillery charge at Friedland is a good example:

"Russian artillery was beginning to find the range. Men and horses were beginning to get hit. Horses, terrified, screamed and went down in a mess of blood, harness, and several body parts, the gunners and drivers hustling to cut the wounded or dead animals free to allow the rest of the team the ability to move when ordered. Men were cut down without a sound, or screamed like their four-footed comrades as hot metal cut into flesh. Plunging and ricocheting roundshot decaptitated gunners, the wounded staying at their posts until relieved or passing out from loss of blood." (later on) "More men and horses were hit and went down, blood splattering guns, limbers, and harness, but the gunners calmly and expertly reopened fire.

Through the noise and mess of the shot- and smoke-filled inferno, Senarmont set an admirable example of coolness to his gun crews, imitated by the company commanders and battery officers. Still not satisfied with the range to target, he again ordered the companies forward to get within slingshot range. To save depleted horse teams, the gunners fastened their bricoles to their guns, turning themselves into "man teams," and went forward by alternate bounds to 120 yards from the enemy......


Other examples exist in Kiley's text.
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« Réponse #6 le: 06 mai 2005, 17:20:56 pm »
My ultimate game would have four levels of play:

1) The International Strategic Level

Turn based with turns covering perhaps 3 months at a time. Each turn would include military unit raising and training tasks, financial and economic considerations, espionage and diplomacy. Very high level military moves would also be made on a map accompanying this level. The player would represent a government or dictator and would conduct the highest levels of diplomatic and strategic activity. Activities such as resource handling, economics and espionage would be AI controlled. For example as a government I would request that we go to war in support of our ally Blogdovia who has just been threatened by the dastardly Flangites next door. I request we send an army of 40,000 men in two corps with an artillery and cavalry reserve. In the meantime we send the Blogdovian government 250,000 in gold as immediate financial aid. The AI works out the army will take six months to assemble and send by sea arriving in the Blogdovian main port next autumn. We can afford to send the 250,000 in gold now but this restricts our army to 30,000 and only corps artillery, no army reserve park. As this is a small command our best Field Marshal has refused to command it and we can send it only in the care of a lesser officer. Or we can send the full army as planned with our Top Boy in charge but the Blogdovian rescue package will only amount to 100,000 gold. The player then decides which of these options (there could be several) he will take, the AI handling all the minor jobs of recruiting men to bring the depot battalions up to strength, cost of issue new uniforms, costs of buying extra artillery horses and so on. The 'minor' detail of what units to send unit strengths, and higher formation structure are not relevant to this level of game command. All this is worked out by the AI in accordance with our army doctrine and organisation (which we specified at the start of the game). Espionage would be similarly handled by the AI based on the standing of our consulate in that region, general reports from travelling traders, army co-operation officers writing letters home or the reports from agents operating in the enemy government or civil echelons. There wouldn't be much in the way of pretty animations on this map but it would be an open map (a la RTW) rather than a map of provinces.


2) The Military Strategic Level

A level on which pure military campaigns could be fought, preferably of the scale of the whole 100 Days, the whole French invasion of Russia, the whole of the Iberian Peninsula, all of Bonapartes 1796 invasion of Piedmont, and so on. This level might be turn based at around 1 day to 1 week per turn, or it could be real time (with time steps that include obligatory night time rest periods). This game level would allow great detail in units, strengths, marching rates, scouting, visibility, fog of war, disease, wounds and recovery from wounds, replacements, weather, minor politics (such as negotiating terms in sieges, or temporary cease fire conventions). The impact of higher politics (such as alliances or ceasefires affecting the whole campaign) would come in from 'on high' but in accordance with decisions made on the International Strategic Level. For example, continuing our expedition to help Blogdovia the map will be of that country plus the border regions of Flangia and her ally Thurn. We don't know it but the clever Blogdovian Prince has used our 100,000 to 'invite' the Thurnian government to stay out of the war and not join in the invasion the Flangites plan. The campaign starts in the spring following the autumn in which our army landed so we have had plenty of time to get to know the good defensive terrain and the likely avenues of the Flangian attack. So our campaign map is a clear one and shows where the Blogdovian troops are. Generally apart from the ability to send replacements to the front and maintian the games supply system there would be no resource management in this level of the game. The player would represent the highest level of army command in a local theatre. In essence this level is the ultimate miniatures campaign but run on a computer with all the admin tasks that so often bog down miniatures campaigns taken care of by the computer. This level could be run as a stand alone game or it would 'switch on' as a result of very high level manouverings in the International Strategic Level.


3) Grand Tactical Level

This level switches on when opposing forces meet in the Military Strategic Level above. I can think of no better  description than to say Les Grognards sits in here. However I would like to see Rome Total War quality graphics (perhaps even more realistic graphics) and a toggle to switch off a map view altogether and manage the game from eye level and only being able to respond to the changing situation by means of real time dispatches and scouting reports, or personal reconnaissance. The player would represent an army commander if the encounter was a large one (e.g. Borodino), a corps commander if the encounter was mid-sized (e.g. Busaco) or a division commander if the action was small (e.g. Maida). If the action was just one of picquets or petit guerre the player could still involve himself at the battalion, company or platoon command level if he wished - the game engine would be flexible enough to activate the games rules, AI and level of graphic detail commensurate with the level of battle being resolved.

4) First Person Level

This level could stand alone as a fun game or be nested within level 3. The player could, if he wished, be a single soldier and experience the chaos of battle from the centre of a fusilier company of Durutte's division as it advances on Papelotte or you could be Colonel Baring and organise the defence of La Haye Sainte, or you could be a lowly French sous-lieutenant in charge of 20 men and a hay wagon out foraging near Ciudad Rodrigo when you are surprised by a vedette of 8 British Hussars. I'm thinking Sean Bean as Sharpe here :) This game would be pure fun and might just be a pleasant diversion, but you could dip into the perspective of any man in your army, in any battle at any time. Some of these men would have no influence on the battle, some might have a significant part to play. The AI at this level would be very subtle and each of your own men and the enemy would be acting in accordance with orders issued from a higher level (level 3 above) plus be constrained by their training, morale, instincts, experience and army doctrine.

The game could be played offline entirely as single player against all computer controlled opponents.

But now the fun part. All levels allow massive multiplayer, online in real time. In Level 1 each player simultaneously sends out political instructions and requests, conducts diplomacy via chat windows with other players, pays players to spy on opponents or whatever, very much like the board game DIPLOMACY and when each is ready the game turn marker is advanced and all moves take place. In level 2 campaigns are planned and forces march or sail across the map. The players of the 2 (or more) countries fighting this campaign are the army commanders. The other players in the Level 1 campaign are allotted commands of corps, divisions or garrisons by the AI on a random or pre-determined level. Each of these subordinates has limited information commensurate with his level of command. In level 3 a similar structure is in place. Subordinate players will each gain honour, prestige and skill transferrable in some way to their own Level 1 positions (gold?) if they obey orders, act within national doctrine, co-operate, are successful in battle, do heroic deeds and so on. This incentive binds players into teams to work together even though they command opposing nations on the Level 1 map. Level 4 can really only be played online as a stand alone game, not as part of Level 3 I think, but being in an online game with 50+ other grognards all enjoying the period and the fun of a period first person wargame would be great.

Because the AI is so heavily intertwined in all levels of this game, if any one player cannot be at an online session, his entire nation will continue to function in accordance wiuth the situation he is currently in.

In addition to all THAT, the naval aspects of the game would be fully playable, from the International Strategic level (do I pull my home defence fleet out of the water this winter and have their bottoms scraped and recoppered - or do I keep it at sea watching that troublsome enemy) to the Military Strategic level (does Nelson follow Villeneuve out to the Caribbean or stay off Gibraltar?), to the Grand Tactical level (sea battles, landings from the fleet to attack forts, cutting out operations, putting armies ashore on a foreign beach, naval bombardments), to the first person level (leading a boarding party across the deck of your frigate, sword in hand).

And in addition to all THAT the game would allow not only accurate Napoleonic period wars and campaigns (chosen from a list of pre-set start dates and political set ups) but allow fully fictional nations and maps to be generated, much like the fictional games of Charles Grant and Brigadier Peter Young in the golden days of 1960s wargaming, the unit builder would allow you to make up armies based on historical practice but with your own personal stamp, uniforms, flags, regimental titles, doctrine, etc.

I would also like the game to cover the period from the Seven Years War as well, since that's one of my favourite wargaming periods. So 1755 to 1820 would be nice, thank you :)

Did I miss anything out?
Cheers, Martin

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« Réponse #7 le: 06 mai 2005, 18:57:03 pm »
Thank a Lot...

I have to study this nice contribution...
There are some 'features' which are yet hidden...
and I hope Les Grognards will be the first FPC (First Person Commander)...

Please Continue....

JMM

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« Réponse #8 le: 14 mai 2005, 13:36:34 pm »
For me is very easy, perfect game would be Empires in Arms for PC (or Crown of Glory) and fighting battles with histwar. It would be simply the best game i could imagine without doubt.

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« Réponse #9 le: 22 mai 2005, 18:26:46 pm »
Bonjour Beren,

Can you give a short description how Empires in Arms plays?

How does it differ from let's say Axis & Allies and the strategic part of Total war?

What is it you like about EIA?

/Lars L.
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« Réponse #10 le: 23 mai 2005, 10:46:39 am »
Oh my god, a fan of napoleonic era that don´t know EiA?? jijiji, impossible. Is the best boardgame i´ve ever played. It´s a strategic/diplomacy napoloenic game with a great gameboard, it´s very difficult to explain here, you must see this pages:

http://eia.xnetz.com/
http://www.dlc.fi/~hurmavi/empires4.html
http://members.aol.com/wergames/empires.htm

This game is not tactical, normally you win wars with great battles, and this battles resolved using HISTWAR must be fantastic. It would be a slow game, but i would take all time of my life playing vs computer :)


This are screenshots for the PCgame:






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« Réponse #11 le: 23 mai 2005, 12:58:27 pm »
Citation de: "Beren"
Oh my god, a fan of napoleonic era that don´t know EiA?? jijiji, impossible.


 :lol:  Actually Beren, I have the board game.  :P
Only I never had anyone to play it with so the game rules I read many years ago have now been forgotten.  :oops:

I hoped that you would be able to summarize it for me since you must have played it many times.
...I know I'm lazy.  :wink:

I have also my eyes on the PC version of the game to be published by Matrix. It looks kind of dull though and the plying time up to 100 hours might be way to long for a single game. Add to that battles fought by Les Grognars say a 1-2 hour per battle. It would really take forever to play the game. Imagine playing MP for that long.  :roll:

However I think I would prefer EIA before Total war since EIA seems to be more of a wargame. I don't like things like placing troops in building to train them like in MTW. It seems to me as an unnecessary step that can and should be avoided in a game. I mean if you buy troops you pay for trained troops not farmers.

How about "Napoleon in Europe" by Eagle games? Have anyone here played it? If so how is it and how does it play? Could that be a model for a strategic game with Les Grognard as a tactical part?

It looks great but I have not bought it since I would not have anyone to play it with.  :cry:  That's the reason I prefer PC games, plus it's quicker than a board game.  :)

/Lars L.
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« Réponse #12 le: 25 mai 2005, 00:14:57 am »
it is simple , but maybe not easy:

-Send orders in pause.
-Saves a file to Re-look the movie and Re-play the battle at any place and any moment of the battle.

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« Réponse #13 le: 10 juin 2005, 11:06:54 am »
Also an excellent game would be the mix of Napoleon 1813 (Pcgame) and les grognards. Napoleon 1813 was a very good game, at campagin (germany 1813) level, then you fight battles at a tactical map (great idea). But the problem with this game was that it couldn´t be played by email nor TCP/IP, and the IA was very very very horrible.

A mix of this games, would be great.

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/013/013582/imgs_1.html

http://www.jeuxvideo.com/articles/0000/00000333_test.htm