Auteur Sujet: Some things for me to play properly  (Lu 8015 fois)

Hors ligne Simon

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Some things for me to play properly
« le: 19 juillet 2010, 01:00:46 am »
I appreciate your time in answering my queries Hook.

The OOB editor and map editor way used to create a very small scenario representing the action around the town of Tellnitz involving the French 26th light at the beginning of our Austerlitz. I wanted to see exactly how units would behave.

 This is a summary of the status of those queries that I said earlier...

The animation problem went away eventually but seems like a bug.

Not being able to bring up the system menu seems like a bug.

Sound problems not due to having earlier version (I have 2b). Seems like a bug.

If the number for morale does not give indication as to how the unit will behave, what is the point of having the number at all?

The cavalry that would not attack but I mentioned seem to be in a good position to do so. Maybe I judged this badly though. Wouldn't it be good idea for units to confirm if they are not going to do has ordered. I think Gettysburg used to say something like can't do that general.

Also, the artillery would not fire either but the explanation above does not explain this? I'm sure they could see the target so that was not the problem.

I know that cavalry send a squadron to attack but I never saw them go and when I looked at the artillery they were just firing normally then suddenly these figures appeared flashing on and off and sometimes just disappearing. Then the artillery said it was destroyed but it was still there. It's very strange to see.

In the example where the units moved past their deployment they were not attacking the enemy. A long way away from the enemy actually.

Still don't know how to  move Corps Cmdr on his own.

The appearance I can't quite understand. I know that the unit take up the rights space as you say but why do they deploy so far apart? Surely families would not half battalions of 300 m from each other. That is why I think it looks strange. When I moved Corps of just for units, some kept stopping for ages when they were a long way from where the car was told to deploy. Maybe they were keeping in line with other units.


Hors ligne Hook

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #1 le: 19 juillet 2010, 01:34:38 am »
The appearance I can't quite understand. I know that the unit take up the rights space as you say but why do they deploy so far apart? Surely families would not half battalions of 300 m from each other. That is why I think it looks strange. When I moved Corps of just for units, some kept stopping for ages when they were a long way from where the car was told to deploy. Maybe they were keeping in line with other units.

Just a quick answer on this one, I'll get back to the rest later.

The units deploy far enough apart so that everyone can form into lines, which can be quite long.  That's why there's so much space between units.  Also, the length of the deployment line you draw has some effect on how far apart the individual units deploy.  There are minimum and maximum lengths for this line.

Hook

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #2 le: 19 juillet 2010, 02:24:33 am »
Hi...

Maybe you can send a file xxx.sav to technique@histwargames.com or upload into redmine (http://comandplay.coda-cola.net/projects).

If you add a list with time reference + unit reference, we can analyze the different behaviors...
either we can give a correct explanation or it's a bug I have to fix.

Are you agree?

JMM

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #3 le: 19 juillet 2010, 16:42:27 pm »
JMM can check a save game file (found in the Save\Bataille folder) to answer some of your questions.  I'll try to answer a few others here.

Not being able to bring up the system menu seems like a bug.

In some screen resolutions, the system menu appears at a different place than the mouse cursor.  When you move the mouse cursor off the menu, the menu disappears.  If the save cursor doesn't move over the menu when it appears, it disappears again immediately.  We had that one fixed at one time, but it may have shown up again.  What screen resolution are you running the game?  What are you doing to get the system menu?

Citer
If the number for morale does not give indication as to how the unit will behave, what is the point of having the number at all?

The morale is compared to the enemy unit morale.  This is part of what determines whether a unit will attack another.  Even if you don't know the enemy unit morale, if your own unit has low morale you can assume it may decide not to attack.  There are a lot of factors that go into this decision, so even if you have higher morale a unit may refuse to attack.  Mostly, I just get my units into position and let them decide what to do, as the regimental AI is pretty good about this.

Citer
The cavalry that would not attack but I mentioned seem to be in a good position to do so. Maybe I judged this badly though. Wouldn't it be good idea for units to confirm if they are not going to do has ordered. I think Gettysburg used to say something like can't do that general.

Depending on the relative difference in unit sizes, morale, fatigue and unit quality, and probably a couple of other things as well, like cavalry against a square, a cavalry unit may refuse to attack because it doesn't think it can win.  If conditions change, it may go ahead and attack at some point.

Citer
Also, the artillery would not fire either but the explanation above does not explain this? I'm sure they could see the target so that was not the problem.

In the example where the units moved past their deployment they were not attacking the enemy. A long way away from the enemy actually.

JMM will need to analyze these.


Citer
Still don't know how to  move Corps Cmdr on his own.

You can't.  The corps commander will usually be somewhere near the "center of mass" of his corps.

Edit to add:  At some point in the future, we're supposed to get the ability to take command of a single corps at any point in a larger battle.  When this is added, it's likely that you'll be able to move the corps commander the same way you move the commander in chief now. 

Citer
The appearance I can't quite understand. I know that the unit take up the rights space as you say but why do they deploy so far apart? Surely families would not half battalions of 300 m from each other.

A regiment in line takes about 250 meters of space.  They deploy about 300 meters apart so that both regiments may form line.

Hook
« Modifié: 19 juillet 2010, 16:45:35 pm par Hook »

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Re : Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #4 le: 19 juillet 2010, 18:30:47 pm »

In some screen resolutions, the system menu appears at a different place than the mouse cursor.  When you move the mouse cursor off the menu, the menu disappears.  If the save cursor doesn't move over the menu when it appears, it disappears again immediately.  We had that one fixed at one time, but it may have shown up again.  What screen resolution are you running the game?  What are you doing to get the system menu?


Sorry to contradict you on this, Hook, but at least to me (1920x1080) the submenus brought by the Esc key were NEVER completely fixed, at least not in the released patches; I reported it on Redmine months ago, the "task" was eventually changed by JMM to "solved", but it never was, at least in my desktop resolution. And it continues defective in patch 2b. But it depends on the screen resolution, the problems that I get are slightly different in my laptop at 1366x768 resolution (System just flashes and it's impossible to get to, but the other submenus are partly cut in the bottom; reported, again...  on Redmine).

If I may suggest a solution, make the submenus appear in the center of the screen (the center at least is the same for every resolution, IMHO  ;)), and make them stay fixed until some item is selected by the player or until the Esc key is again pressed.

Regards
« Modifié: 19 juillet 2010, 18:34:12 pm par Franciscus »

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #5 le: 19 juillet 2010, 23:47:51 pm »
Thanks Franciscus.  That's the kind of stuff we need to know about.

Actually, the center isn't the same for all resolutions, but at least it can be calculated easily enough. :D  The only location that is the same in every possible resolution is the upper left, coordinates 0,0.

I'd prefer not to have to click on something to make that menu go away, as it usually shows up when I don't want it to.

Hook

Hors ligne Simon

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #6 le: 28 juillet 2010, 22:11:19 pm »
The suggestion to send a saved file and make a commentary on the various things found, seems an excellent idea for all concerned.

 I have therefore forwarded a save of a test game, with very few troops played on a 1920 x 1200 resolution monitor. In order to reduce uncertainties, all delays and fog of war are at their minimum levels. For completeness, I have included all my observations in the hope that this will be of the maximum benefit. Some items may be bugs and others may be simply my misunderstanding of correct operation.

The first section deals with the user interface in particular and the second section catalogues timed events during the gaming session. The .sav has been mailed separately - shame that format is not permitted in posts here.


Would be better if the game use one logo instead of three for the short cut, the minimised game and the website - for the sake of consistency.

Previously mentioned system menu on the F3 screen. This also makes it difficult or impossible to take screenshots using the W key?

F2 view: displays information boxes for each side on the wrong side of the screen (one would have expected the French to be on the left).

The cavalry icon in the smaller of the two F2 views is shown as two overlapping rectangles - is this intentional?

The hotspot for selecting a unit with the mouse is considerably offset from the centre of the rectangles, making it difficult to select. The same is true of the F3 view.

"Save initial deployment" - no file name is prompted?

The method of saving the game seems problematic, with the absence of specific filenames making it difficult to revisit previous stages etc. Use of the starting time as the file name is pretty confusing. It seems necessary to exit the game in order to achieve a save.

After having saved the starting positions / order of battle, during the game it would not permit redeployment, despite the top of screen menu inviting me to do so. I think that exiting the game again completely may then have circumvented this.

Mousing over units on both sides on the F2 screen producers the numeral 1 next to the Austrians, when the French were selected. This may well be an issue arising from my ignorance.

Place names only appear when the overall commander is selected. Linking places to commanders doesn't seem a logical thing to do.

Of all the aspects of gameplay, the way in which morale is presented is most unhelpful to my mind. A "time to rout" raises the difficulty of dynamically changing circumstances making this potentially inaccurate. The use of numbers for morale is difficult to assimilate and the lack of thresholds almost renders the numbers inconsequential anyway (you never know when a unit is going to break). The human brain assimilates shapes and colours more easily. It would be a big improvement to have either a sliding scale, or gradually a changing colour (say from green through amber to red).

Similarly, the coding of unit quality is just that - a code. It could be a lot more user-friendly than having to remember the number, location and colour of chevrons.

When replaying a video, there did not appear to be an indication that it had come to a conclusion.


During the game

Loss of animation experienced again, with units sliding along instead of marching.

Is there a way to turn off the music in F3? It's quite appropriate and I liked some of the time of those tunes are becoming seriously ingrained now. The F2 screen theme I thought was very nice in its full rendition.

Units became detached and could not be re-attached. Again this may be my unfamiliarity with the game in that they may have been circumstances which precluded their re-attachment.

When deploying, units would seem to start and stop their movement arbitrarily, rather than simply to maintain a formation.

0820 Soult circling.

1013 cavalry rallying for some reason but nowhere near enemy

1017 unit withdrawing but seems okay. No evidence of enemy activity when 2% losses displayed. The artillery must have been firing.

0006 this is undoubtedly a different time reference to report dispatches but it's not intuitively obvious what this time in years or how it relates to the rest of the timing in the game.

0943 stream no impediment to artillery movement apparently. During artillery advance, more circling observed.

1025 mouse over cavalry unit shows "infantry is in line formation". Mouse started drawing grey boxes across F2 screen. Could be the game working correctly but I don't know what it was doing.

1026 artillery seem to have stopped firing (maybe earlier and before the following action below). When the artillery was firing, only half the battery did so. This could well be a historically accurate simulation of artillery just firing a couple of pieces when at long-range.

1130 cavalry seem to have attacked French artillery but I missed it, the cavalry often disappearing from the screen. There's then a flickering vibration of the attacking cavalry amongst the artillerymen. No evidence of destroyed artillery unit. All looks a bit odd. The AI appears to have placed the artillery in considerable jeopardy recklessly.

1257 one battalion way ahead of the deployment line.

1403 units advances which morale of only 32.

1404 cavalry withdraws, why?

1407 music stops when Cmdr selected?

1409 ranking battalion does not show its casualty figure. Another battalion refuses to deploy in line.

1414 both units in a firefight against each other rout. Unit seen to rout with zero casualties. AI has inexplicably retaken command of battalion that I had deliberately removed from the AI.


Some of the timing is maybe slightly approximate and other odd events missed but I was trying to scribble all this down whilst playing!

I'm sure some of the things are down to me but I hope that the time invested in doing this test and reporting upon it is of some value to the further development of the game, which is the intention of this post, i.e. to be helpful and not to detract from the game.

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #7 le: 28 juillet 2010, 23:03:51 pm »
Simon,
Replaying a game and making notes like this is extremely helpful.  I do the same when playtesting and I know how time consuming this can be.
I go so far as to attempt to create reproducible tests in order to reinforce the case for raising a bug report.  A simple way to do this is to take a battle and move many units to the map edges so that one corps can be brought up against another.   It is also possible to create a map and OoB to test a specific concern.
For me what matters is the game at the level of the high command.  I believe in letting the lower level fight the battle according to their doctrine so I can accept the odd unit doing something strange.    I would prefer that every unit behaved in a sensible way all the time of course.

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #8 le: 29 juillet 2010, 13:53:51 pm »
Yes of course. I did in fact create an order of battle for this test and had clear reasons for testing at the lowest level.

I do agree with you that the odd strange behaviour is not a huge problem but without this kind of testing, it's difficult to assess the overall level of integrity. The combined effect of many low-level aberrations would jeopardise the accuracy and functionality of the simulation.

The second concern was to verify my own understanding of the game. Specific acknowledgements or confirmations of direct action by the player are not always available, which sometimes makes it difficult to discriminate between incorrect behaviour and correct behaviour, incorrectly interpreted (by me). This test therefore seemed a good way to properly monitor cause and effect.

Finally, there are several queries relating to the game interface that are independent of the artificial intelligence system and unit behaviour.

Overall, I suppose what I'm saying is that the game is the sum of its parts and I want to be sure that the parts work and my understanding of those parts is correct.

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #9 le: 03 août 2010, 21:53:48 pm »
Bump

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #10 le: 04 août 2010, 07:56:29 am »
Try it with patch 2.0c. I think many issues are gone. Also you can see the status of your comanders which gives you a good idea about their actions.

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Re : Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #11 le: 04 août 2010, 11:46:24 am »
Try it with patch 2.0c. I think many issues are gone. Also you can see the status of your comanders which gives you a good idea about their actions.
Are these statuses affected by the delays of the aides-de-champ?

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #12 le: 04 août 2010, 16:17:12 pm »
I tested the basic tutorial with 2c. It didn't go well...

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Re : Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #13 le: 04 août 2010, 17:05:47 pm »
I tested the basic tutorial with 2c. It didn't go well...

did you post those pics and save games on redmine?
THX

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Re : Some things for me to play properly
« Réponse #14 le: 05 août 2010, 18:12:41 pm »
I have posted the results of the tests in a new thread with detailed notes and attached photos.